Greatest Female Songwriter

I was making a list in my head of the greatest songwriters of the last century. Lots of great ones of course. Some I'm sure of some I'm not but the one thing that i thought was very clear was the greatest female songwriter, Joni Mitchell. With apologies to Dar, Janis, Janis, Edith, and whoever else, Joni is in a class by herself.

word. joni rocks.
i'm assuming that you meant janis j. and janis i. there?
i'd also add patti smith and chrissie hynde to the list.

I deliberatly didn't say but of course that was the Jani that I meant. I was going to add Patti and Chrissie but wasn't sure how many people would know who I meant since I was only doing first names.

oOpatti's the boss, joni is the queen! ol' piaf, she's the voi-oice of the sparrow, and dar's just too cute, dar is always too cuteOo

*hides*

I guess you'd vote for Joe Durso as greatest male songwriter.

yes.
but for female, my vote goes to the autoharp lady.

oO Two souls wandering, wandering Oo

That brings me to tears every time I hear it.

i want to see a double act of her and the connecticut cartoon bear.

I think Jian is the greatest female song writer!

I'd have to vote Dar, but Jian's a close second.� ;)

I shall have to agree with you on that one. Joni Mitchell is my favorite female songwriter as well. 200 ZacquesPoints^tm for you.

Granted most people wouldn't put her up against the heavyweights mentioned here, but when it comes down to it, Susan Werner's the one who makes it to my computer speakers the most.

I think it is the difference between greatest and favorite. I have every Christine Lavin CD and have seen her countless times. That doesnt' mean I think she's a better writer than Joni.

"Greatest" can have some funny meanings. Everyone seems to consider Shakespeare great, but he's rubbish to read IMHO :)

I think Shakespeare's great, but it does take some time to decipher since its written in old english.

That time taken to decipher it is part of the beauty of it. I love to read Shakespeare, and I have seen many who despise him who seem to be simply to lazy to fully understand his work (no offense to Josh, who indubitably has put the time into it and simply has a differing opinion).

Oh, I'll fully admit that I'm too lazy to put any time into it. Fiction writing in general has never done much for me, though. Music has always been where I see the most beauty. To be fair to writers, musicians have more to work with. It'd be like a painter who only had orange paint.

*withdraws previous statement about Josh being the exception*

:-p

no it's not.

it's written in Elizabethan English which is an earlier form of modern English.

Old English is TOTALLY different and pretty much needs to be translated before you can read it--very heavy on the german influence. Think Beowulf.

Middle English is aroud the time of Chaucer which . well. if you read it out loud pretending you're the Swedish Chef you can understand a good portion of it, just some words are totally different.

but Shakespeare spoke the same version of English that we do.

I was going to say that.

Interesting point, the English language changed more from Chaucer to Shakespeare than in hte 400 years since.

muahahaha.

I beat you to being pedantic ;D

yah-- I think that's pretty cool. of course a lot of it has to do with the fact that people had pretty much settled in britan, there were no more invaders bringing new languages into the mix. (although, I'll have to go back and check--were there any big upheavals between Middle English and modern?)

You may find that Gutenberg had more to do with the slowdown in the rate of change of languages than anybody else. The second most important factor is probably increased mobility, starting with the invention of the bicycle.

oO who makes steve gutenberg... a star?Oo

.oO We do...We do...Oo.

actually, it's early modern english
*ducks*

His plays are pretty good (some more than others), but they need to be preformed/watched, not read.

His sonnets though, those are awful (once again, IMHO)

*hides from Shakespearian flames*

yes yes yes yes!!! me too! i totally agree. and i was gonna say Susan. she rocks.

I agree... I saw her this spring doing a show for the jazz festival. She played an entire set of jazzy, loungy numbers (a la "Maybe If I Sang Cole Porter"). They were brilliant. I think she really has an awareness of the way her lyrics and music play off each other, and I love that.

I loves me some Susie. My dream concert would be a double bill with Susan and Peter Mulvey. It makes me bitter that it's happened, but not on my coast. :)

Susan is amazing...I love her guitar songs and initially was so-so with her piano stuff, but have now grown to love it as well. Her style brings to mind that of Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, and bunch of other great comptemporary pianists. Mmmm..so good. Her versatility is what makes her most impressive to me. She definitely ranks up high in my list of great female songwriters.

Paul Simon, duh. (this is only here 'cause i couldn't create a new forum)

I'm going to have to think on it and get back to y'all.

I'm pretty sure about that.

Though I agree with Josh, Susan is right up there.

i mean.� -clearly-.

'the enemy called pants'.

'amelia's little red dog'.

'the caterpillar song'.

HOW can y'all forget these classic musical pieces???!!!!????!!!!

bastids� :)

{*note* this is just a joke...not an anti-katryna post.� coz...actually..these songs -do- crack me up�:)� }

Good point she is *WAY* more tallented then her sister!

firstoff, word to the joni people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!� when i saw the forum title, my first thought was 'easy. joni mitchell'.�

then i remembered joan baez.� who i think also -HASTA- be up high on the list.

but yay dar, also.�� and yayeeeeeeeeee susan.

and i am sure there are others i'm missing.� like lucinda williams, who i *heart*.� i just dunno if i'd say she was 'THE greatest songwriter -ever-.

joan baez? not especially known for her songwriting, more known for her iunterpretations of others' songs. "diamonds and rust" is somehow a great song, sure, but it also showcases the fact that she really doesn't have much of a sense of songwriting. have you ever listened to her trying to fit all those words into the bridge?

Once again you beat me to it. She is the first to admit that she isn't a great songwriter which is why she mainly does covers.

If I were picking greatest female vocalist she'd be high on my list.

She is also one the best people, a personal hero of mine.

exactly. she'd be way up there for female vocalist and for generally awesome people.
hee, as soon as i posted this, joan baez came on the radio, covering janis ian.

What was she covering Janis with?

mmmmjoanabaez/janisian

Joni Mitchell, Carole King, Nina Hagen, I can't, and don't want to decide. Come to think of it, there is no need for it either, hah.

Carole King, I forgot about her, a good one.

Ellie Greenwhich needs to be mentioned too.

*cough*GREENWICH*cough*
I didn't recognize her name. Shame on me. Here are the songs she's written or cowritten. Wow.

Someone who loved me and knows my password would have simply edited my post for me :P

too bad there's no one like that around here.

the nields! :D

*hides from nate*

[/unconctructiveness] :D

actually--and I think nate *might * agree...

the neilds write some fantastic songs, I din't know about greatest persay--but their songs are really well done, the music is interesting the lyrics are thoughtful and funny...

I just wish they'd sell them to people who could sing them right ;D no dissonent wailing, thankyewverymuch.

I love the songs. I dislike the singers

amen sistah.

They *DO* write some damned good songs... great lyrics at times... great music... etc. (though that was mostly the daves).

But yeah, if they would only give up and admit that they cannot sing, I'd probably become a big fan.

I think Tori Amos is a pretty great songwriter.

Ugh.

Aw, hey, I know she's a flake and everything, but I think she's written some really cool things. Also, I don't know about calling anyone the "greatest" but I can say she's among my personal favorites. I used to hate her. I nearly dumped a boyfriend, because he had some of her albums. I have changed. {g}

Since when is being a flake a liability for a songwriter? I wouldn't put her in my short list favorites but Tori rocks.

Oh, I meant that I think a lot of people find her craziness off-putting. I used to. Then I learned to embrace it. {g} If she wasn't such a weird egg, then I doubt she'd be such a good one.

Picking the greatest is just too darn hard for me. There are so many that I consider great. I do agree that Joni, Susan, Carole, Patti Smith, and Dar are amazing songwriters.

I would also add Suzanne Vega to the list. Her songs have struck a positive chord in me recently.

And as cheesy as some of their songs can be, I think some of the songs that Amy Ray and Emily Saliers (aka the Indigo Girls) have written are beautiful. Ghost gives me goosebumps every time.

yes...all the female singers that people have named are amazing and deserve to be here..but I can't help but think that maybe some more modern - like within the last 20 to 15 years should be on here....ani difranco, sheryl crow, tori was already on there...but joni yes totally. And what happened to Stevie Nicks? Why isn't she on here yet?

Amen.
Too many old people around here.
:D

Erin McKeown!!!
Who's with me?

A list of greatest anything will usually tend to have too many or too few moderns. The problem is that new people haven't withstood the test of time. It is hard to determine the difference between being hot and really having what it takes to be a classic. One example that always comes to my mind was form WNEW's annual poll of 1027 greatest songs of the rock era. Soon after it came out Meatloaf's Bat out of Hell made the top ten. Ten years later it was somewhere in the 400s.

I think when talking about singer/songwriters time is even more important. It takes time to separate in your mind the performer from the songwriter. I love Erin and Dar but how many covers have you heard of their works? That isnt' to say that the might not belong but it is hard to say now.

All that being said someone like a Joni or a Dylan revolutionized things and you could tell immediately. They were also covered extensively from day one.

word. i can see people like dar and nerissa nields being thought of among the "greats" in the future -- just like i can see dave carter and ben folds being up their on the male side. but to talk about "greatest," as in "of all time," you've gotta pick people who have stood the test of time -- something that vh1, mtv, and all the rest completely disregarded in all those "top whatevers of the millennium." don't even get me started on those.
that's why, as much as i love all the usual suspects, i'm not including them on my lists except as possibilities for the future.

Which getting completely off the topic reminds me of the genesis of Richard Thompson's Thousand Years of Popular Music tour. It got started when Playboy asked him to take part in a greatest songs of the millenium survey and he took them at their word and went back a thousand years, song that really stood the test of time. Of course he often ends the show with Oops I did it Again.

You only need to go back a quarter of a millenium. J. S. Bach died in 1750. Although he was a popular and respected composer and keyboard player in his time, he was soon ignored, as new musical styles captured the attention of the concert going masses. Until Wanda Landowska recorded some of his works on piano rolls in the 1920s he may as well not have existed.

On a similar note, a Sydney radio station conducted a poll regarding the popularity of "hit singles" in 2000. "Stairway to Heaven" finished up as #2. Most of the rest occupying the first ten places were recent productions. Last year that radio station repeated the poll. "Stairway to Heaven" finished up #3, none of the other "top ten" works reappeared. They were replaced by nine other fairly recent top tunes.

I have to agree with a lot of what's been said. Dar and Janis Ian, werd.

I want to toss in Mary Gauthier and Melissa Ferrick, both of whom just WOWED me this summer in my first ever chance to see them live.. getting to hear the songs, and then hear -about- the songs, in a workshop, was wonderful.

Melissa Ferrick puts love and heartbreak into words better than any songwriter I currently know. :)

*nods* More than any other songwriter, with her I can sit and listen and think "god, I know exactly what she means!" after almost every line.

Clearly no one has heard "Rock and roll toaster", "The Dating song", or "the claw machine"� otherwise you would have said "Annika is the best female song writer EVER!"

This could have gone on the Gay Marriage poll too.

Janis went up to Ontario to marry her long time companion Patricia Snyder. Their wedding outfits were Hawaiian shirts. I love Janis Ian. Read all about it here. It is the NY Times and you have to register but it is worth it.