Poll: Public smoking bans?

Yeah, I can't stand going to a show and coming back smelling like I walked out of a lifesize ash tray.  Eddie From Ohio has even started putting no-smoking bans into their contracts.  So, if can get lifted from enclosed spaces (Like they are going to do soon in NYC see), the sooner the better.

For the record, I, too, absolutely despise the smell of smoke.  And I used to work at a succession of casinos.  The first thing I did every night after arriving home was take off my clothes that REEKED of smoke and put them in the bottom of the hamper in the hopes that I wouldn't have to smell that anymore.

But I think that should be part of the equation when you go out.  There's a band you like playing at a venue where smoking is allowed.  Well, let your desire to see the band fight it out with your desire to not smell like an ashtray.

NY recently enacted an anti-public smoking law. And I say, "yay". I explained it a bit in my blog, but I feel that the people forced to work in these conditions deserve a healthy environment, as do the rest of us.

I say, no to yay.. What if I decide I want to start smoking... again.. It sucks to go to a restaurant and not be able to smoke during your meal, or after. I believe it's important to have clear smoking and non-smoking area's, but I think to outright ban it isn't fair to those who have chosen that smoking is their thing.

Anni, look at what I wrote in response to Erica please and then respond.

Josh, I'm suprised at you. How are these people "forced" to work in those conditions? Is someone holding a gun to their head and saying "you must work here"?

The decision of whether or not a private establishment is to be smoking or non-smoking (there is nothing "public" about a restaurant) should be left up to the owners. Everyone has the freedom of choice to patronize the establishment or not. Let the public and the free market choose.

Now, for truly "public" places, that's a different story and I think is unaddressable until the idea of "public" property is addressed.

The places which allow smoking are for the most part the lowest rung of the employment ladder. Consider if you are a seriously asthmatic, unskilled worker. There aren't a ton of employment options available to you at that point.

Like I wrote in my blog, the free market and freedom of choice are fine up until the issue of public safety is compromised. Should a club owner be allowed to insulate his walls with flammable foam and host groups that might use pyrotechnics? I think that restaurant and bar owners should be able to do whatever they want up until the point when it interferes with the health and safety of their patrons and workers.

"A seriously asthmatic, unskilled worker." Are there alot of those? There are a ton of unskilled worker jobs which involve relatively safe environments and the ability to say "would you like fries with that?" I don't see a problem.

The question isn't be "should a club owner be allowed to insulate his walls with flammable foam and host groups that might use pyrotechnics?" The question is, how will the free market respond?

First, if we actually enforce the shockingly obviously concept of "if you cause harm to someone, you must pay them restitution" alot of problems would go away. Second, for those club owners who have insurance, insurance companies are (already in some instances) going to require proper insulation and fireproofing for being covered under their plans.

So, you have one tragic incident from a perceived "failing" of the free market, and the free market will respond and adapt. Nothing in life is totally safe and ultimately, it is YOU who are responsible for YOUR safety.

Looks like starfox got no answer to this, unless he wishes to persist with his notion of "free choice."

Looks like you need to take a course in remedial grammar.

Thought not.

I had to go with the ban it option, but I wanted to clarify that I mean in closed spaces. If it's an open-air cafe or something I think smoking should be allowed. I just don't want to be in an enclosed space with it. And smoking/non smoking sections often don't do the trick. Ooh. We're separated by a half-wall. Whee. THAT stops the smoke. NOT. :)

It's not just a like/dislike issue....a lot of people are allergic to smoke and I think when it comes to actually making others around you sick then something needs to be done. If it was just that some folks didn't like the smell of smoke and that was the ONLY consideration, not health, then I'd say "suck it up" :)

i agree with you totally, but i went with the "don't ban it" i guess just cause the categories are so broad.

i mean, there are movements to ban smoking in all *outdoors* public places except for little smokers areas. once it gets past protecting people's health & into trying to shame smokers into quitting, then it is like "mind your own business."

I disagree that smell alone doesn't matter. I was just on a train from Chicago to Dallas and there was no smoking car (we were told that sometimes there is and sometimes there isn't) I won't even address the issue that smoking should be banned on all trains because Hello! Hours or days in a tin can with is not an environment for smoke).

Anyway, there were these two guys where were nic fitting out and freaking because there was no place to smoke, and they were talking about complaining to Amtrak because there was no smoking car (ok I do agree that they should have been told in advance that there wasn't) and so at some point the train staff decide to "create" a smoking area for them. They opened up an unoccupied handicapped room on the lower level of one of the coaches. I heard about this while I was in the dining car. When I went back to my compartment I walked through that coach. You could tell right away which coach it was, the whole car smelled like smoke, when it hadn't before. Those guys had only been smoking down there a little while and already they'd made the whole car unpleasant. If I'd been in that coach I'd have complained bloody murder. Now they have a whole car full of irate people instead of just a couple. Bad move Amtrak.

I'm sorry but in my opinion smoking is a dirty filty habbit, and those that do it are the ones who have a responsibility to keep it away from the rest of us. WE do not have a responsiblity to accomodate them and their drug habbit.

I too am fine with it outside, because outside it doesn't really bother anybody. But in any even slightly enclosed space it should be totally banned.

I think we need to ban most perfume if we're going to ban smoking for smell issues too. Perhaps I am rare that the smell of smoke doesn't bother me, but I tend to get a headache around heavy perfume for any amount of time. Sure, heath-wise, banning smoke has more of an argument, but there are a lot of things than can make a train car unpleasant, not just smoke.

 

Oh man.. I totally agree. Ugh. Perfume is the worst thing ever when overdone.

There are some people I work with who just make me feel like I'm going to vomit.

I know whatcha mea. As far as smoking goes, I think nonsmokers' rights should take priority over smokers' rights. Why do you want to smoke anyway?

See, I think that smoking should not be allowed in enclosed restaurants and other such indoor places, but somewhere like a bar where people go specifically to drink socialize and smoke, I think smoking should be allowed. The problem is, as Josh said, the workers who deserve a work environment that doesn't endanger their health, as well as the fact that asthmatics also like to go to bars. What should be done is there should be ventilation codes in smoking establishments. Let people smoke but don't let the smoke swirl around and get into other peoples lungs. Of course, I don't think anyone's going to really take the time or effort for an initiative like that, so in the meantime, as an asthmatic I have to go with banning it.

There's laws like that in some places.

I think things like smoking bans are one of the few times I find myself using the free-market type argument. Not smoking is good, being able to eat/drink without smoke is good too. But I don't think that it should be a legal issue.
If EFO wants no smoking on the nights of their shows, good for them.
If a bar/club/diner/etc wants to ban smoking, that's good too. They'll likely draw in more people.
But on the other hand, I don't think that it should be illegal to allow smoking in public places. I do completely agree with Gella's ventilation suggestion though.

Here in Bowling Green, there is a smoking ban. It only applies to places that get more than 30% of their money from food. All this really managed to do was to hurt the two or three resturants in town that weren't already smoke free.

All this, and I'm not a smoker ;)

smoking is the individual's choice. smoking sections make sense. put a wall and a door in between them. i like my goddamn lung cancer. don't ask me to change just to make all of you happy.

Erica, in principle I agree with you... the problem is that the nature of the current situation in which smoking establishments tend to be poorly ventilated, it is *not* simply the individual's choice, it is an imposition on others... an imposition that puts people's health and life at risk. I don't mean long-term second hand "oh someday you might develop lung cancer" risk... I mean immediate "I am asthmatic and if you blow smoke in my face my lungs will close up and I will die on the fucking spot" risk. A lot of people who smoke are cognisant of this fact and are considerate about this but a lot are not. A lot of people simply *do not understand* what it means to be severely asthmatic. They do not understand that it is not a choice, not something that you can just suck up and deal with. An asthma attack can be life-threatening. Even when it is not life threatening, it is *very very painful.* I've heard a lot of asthmatic smokers say "Yeah, well, I'm asthmatic and I smoke so fuck you..." there are different degrees of asthma. Just because you are lucky enough to have such mild asthma that you can smoke with little or no difficulty in breathing doesn't mean that the same is true of everyone. This is just something that really burns me up. I *can't* "just deal" if I *can't breathe*

Some people go to a bar to drink and smoke, others, including you and me, go to hear music. I've had to leave to many shows because the smoke got too bad. I shouldn't have to choose between music and breathing.

As a sidelight. I'm an atheist who has about four beers a year yet I spend an inordinate amount of time in in bars and churches.

Oh.. Okay I hadn't thought of that. I don't want you to die. I don't even know what to say right now.. As I agree that it's not fair to people who really do have a medical reason that makes smoking around them unsafe, I still have smoker mind, that makes me want to say, "So stay in the non-smoking sections" Which makes me feel like an ass. I should answer this in a couple weeks when I'm not still not doing the "Nothing wrong with smoking" bit.

No kidding. I used to have asthma where I just coughed a lot, now it's sorta going away. Good thing too, those damn inhalers stunt your growth.

If restaurants actually did that, I might agree with you. But most places I go have the smoking and non-smoking sections separated by an invisible geography line or an incomplete wall. You still smell the smoke quite well, even though it's not as directly in your face.

were not asking you to change. We're asking you to keep it away from us. If I'm near you in an enclosed space then you can't smoke. Period. If you are outside or at home then go to town.

sorry..that came out angrier than i meant. probably bc i haven't had a smoke in a few hours.....=-P

so quit.

sorry, had to say it. :)

if i could quit worse things, i'd stop smoking. but you guys don't understand, so nevermind.

I don't understand what that meant, but I'm sure I would understand, and I'm sure a lot of others would as well, so spill it baby!

maybe she has a chip in her head that keeps her from doing bad stuff?

;-}

i have a deal with myself: if i can stop self-mutialting for a year; i'll give quitting a good,honest shot. since i just cut last night, that day seems pretty far off. i need to do something to de-stress...de-anxious myself. i burned my arm really badly bc i didn't catch the attack in time......i'm babbling....and you probably STILL don't understand. nevermind again.

ACK! We're talking about this right now! I told you I probably understood!! I win.. I guess that's good.

Not at all. I do understand. Not from experience, but I am familiar with self-mutiliation. While I totally sympathize with your situation, I would have to say that I think you should consider the smoking part of the problem. It is also a form of self mutilation. And the urges stem from the same places. It is something you can control. The worse thing about it is that it is also chemically addictive. As a practical matter I understand trying to tackle the cutting first, but really you are going to have to address the whole problem and smoking is probably a part of that.

By the way, you should know that we are all behind you trying to deal with this. It is a very hard thing, and I feel pretty confident in saying that you have all of our support.

Erica, I was joking. I said it because we talked about it in the hall the other day, remember?

And quit it with the "you guys don't understand" thing. Do you have any idea how many of us have or had self-mutilation issues? We *do* understand.

I used to slice up my arms, I have a few really big ugly scars, one on my left wrist. That is a great way to relive stress, although not a very safe way. The problem with cutting is that it gets to a point where it doesn't help. I did a lot of dumb things when it stopped working, I remember once taking an entire bottle of asprin, than waiting for 45 minutes for my blood to be all nice and thinned, the plan was to slit my wrists, but a couple minutes before I did it the phone rang, I was going to ignore it, but than thought it might be Eli, and he would want to do this with me, an odd thought I know, but.. well I have a lot of odd thoughts. Anyhow I answered the phone and it was my little brother Rob, he was about 6 at the time, he was crying and asked me if I was ever going to come see them again, he missed me a lot. After that I didn't attempt suicide for about 4 or 5 months, than I started doing an almost weekly od of heroin, or acid, or anything else that 'might' kill me.
So my point is, I really really do understand.

Now what I do is dye my hair. As dumb as it sounds, when I dye my hair, I don't have to be Annika anymore. Same with cutting my hair, changing my makeup, wearing something bright, etc. etc.

"I held the blade in trembling hands, prepared to make it..but..just then the phone rang...I never had the nerve to make the final cut" - Pink Floyd

Wow.. that's really creepy. Pink floyd wrote a song about me. :^P

Ok. Maybe I'm speaking only as a smoker, maybe I shouldn't whine, or maybe i'm just an insensitive clod. but here is what i have to say. They banned smoking on planes long ago. Fine.  No non smoker wants to be at 10 thousand feet and have no where to go when theres smoke billowing on them.  They banned smoking at restaurants, except at the bar.  Good idea. I don't like to smell smoke when im eating, and i have no problem going to the bar after my meal and having a smoke.  They wabt to ban smoking in ALL bars and clubs.  NOT FINE.  People who go to bars usually drink, and lots of those people like me,  naturally have cigarettes with alcohol.  When im at a club or pub with friends, i want to smoke.  When i'm at a bar watching a show i want to have a smoke.  i know its bad, but even if i do quit i would like to have that option, it should not be taken away.  My feeling is, if youre going to to bars where you KNOW will be smoke, and you have a big problem with it, DONT go to bars. Insensitive clod? probly.  But bars and clubs are the last bastions of smoking areas anywhere, and it would make me angry to have that taken away.  To quote Denis Leary, "whats the rule now, you can only smoke in your room, covers over your head, with all the lights out?!?"  It's ridiculous. Im not a total clod tho, if i know the smoke is bothering people around me at clubs, or there's a pregnant woman or something, i will definitely move somewhere else and enjoy a cancer stick.  But if you come up to me and rudely tell me to not smoke, i'll tell you where i wanna stick it. Is anyone else with me or am i just attracting snarls right now?

jen meyers 

Jen, again, I agree with you. But I do feel like nobody is really paying attention to what I am saying. Well, except Talcott. Talcott's cool. Talcott always listens to me. I love Talcott.

Yes, smoking should be allowed in bars and clubs. But there *has* to be a way to make it possible for both smokers and people who *cannot be around smoke* to be able to enjoy bars and clubs. For many, IT IS NOT A MATTER OF PREFERENCE, IT IS LIFE OR DEATH! I'm saying we *shouldn't have to choose.*

And you are *not* about to tell me that because I am asthmatic I can't see Moxy Fruvous because the club or bar that they are playing is a smoking venue. If you do, I will tell *YOU* where to fucking stick it!

I totally understand what you are saying. I am mildly asthmatic and I have a hard time being around smoke. My grandfather though is severely asthmatic and he has been hospitalized numerous times because of his asthma. According to doctors, my grandmother has the lungs of a smoker and she has never smoked in her life, but my grandfather used and so did my uncle. My father used to smoke in the house and my mother and I would constantly get bronchitis. Once he stopped I think I've only gotten it once or twice (he stopped at least 11 years ago) and my mother maybe 3 times.
Sarah

Along those lines, sarah, i sometimes retain the attitude that the dangers of smoke is SO ARBITRARY.  Someone can smoke 10 packs a day and live till like, 90.  Other totally healty non-smokers can get some kind of cancer or some other disease or get hit by a car or some other  act of god and theyre dead at like, 40. Life is cruel and unfair and when its youre time to go, youre going.  Only god knows why and as frustrating as it is, its a fast of life.  Im not using thi logic as an excuse or reason to smoke, but i dont want to live this totally "ideal" life, deprving myself of simple guilty pleasures (be it smoking, alcohol, fatty food, what have you), only to die younng anyway. 

When my youngest, non-smoking aunt died of cancer recently, i was angry and questioned WHY.  She had quit smoking longg ago, was always worried about her weight, this and that, and she contracted a mysterious form of cancer that did not run inthe family.  WHY did she have to die, ya know?  Why spend so much time imposing hard, sometimes unachievable goals for yourself  when you really can't tell how and when it will all end?

But i myself know the value of being healthy.  I am always starting new diets and exercise routines to be a healthier person.  But i reason with myself that being the healthiest person alive does not guarantee happiness and longevity.  

 

jen meyers

I recently had an uncle who was in the hospital and has been diagnosed with chrone's disease. He lost like 40 pounds. After that and seeing so many heart problems in my family (my father's blood pressure was recently at stroke level) I've been struggling to become healthier. Living on campus doesn't help as far as the food aspect goes. Everything here that's not from the cafeteria is fried and the cafeteria food is horrible on the whole. I recently filled my fridge with stuff like fruits and veggies. Just so hard to get into a habit of eating healthy when everything is based on convenience and there are vending machines right down stairs.
Sarah

hahaha, ok, i see your point.  If i see a person with an inhalor there is no way im going to light up around them. Im senstive to other people's hatred or intolerance of second hand smoke... its just when people are rude and ignorant about it, thats when i get irked.  A simple "please not around me" will suffice.

I remember at past fruvous shows i tend not to light up as much because i am aware my fellow fruheads would not appreciate it.  And even if the government was to impose "smoking sides" ina bar i would adhere to it... because i know that if and when i quit i wouldnt wanna be around it either.

jen

Wait a second.  So, you were born with faulty genes, and the rest of the world should bow and salaam and make things easier for you?  I mean, I'm sorry you have asthma, but why is that anyone's business but your own. 

For the record, I've never smoked...not even one drag.  But I really bristle at the idea that we should legislate things like smoking bans.  If you want to have a bar where you can go without there being smoke, find a VC and open one.  I particularly recommend this if you want to see a Venture Capitalist cry.

GODDAMMIT MICHAEL, Are you even READING what I've written? I'm saying that we should NOT have smoking bans! NOT NOT NOT!

I'm starting to think that you just find any opportunity to disagree with me just to piss me off, whether it's valid or not! You're just looking for excuses to "bristle" at me and to try to make me look like an idiot! You're only shooting yourself in the foot this time... just READ MY FUCKING POSTS before you start bristling!

Well....I read your posts, Gella, and this is how you concluded the first one: "in the meantime, as an asthmatic I have to go with banning it."  I understand that you said that's not your ideal solution, but you did sound willing to support it.

No Becca. I would not. I do not, in real life. But this poll is not real life and if in real life the only options were the options in this poll, I would have to support the bans because any other of the above causes me to possibly die. In real life I *do not* support the bans at all.

Once again, Gella, I have to say that if you are constantly being misinterpreted, perhaps you should examine how you choose to communicate.

Except with Talcott.  You and he apparently share some kind of psychic link.

I think maybe talcott is, like, some kind of a demi-god

Or... wait! KICKASS! Can we start a new faith that worships talcott????

It appears that anni has already started... but, like, can the rest of us join?

:)

I think you all frighten me :)

Although, if there was a faith that worshiped me, that would give me smiting powers, wouldn't it?

*considers the fun he could have with lightning bolts*

Um, I don't think it was a psychic link. I just thought she was perfectly clear in what she was saying. She had to vote for the option that most reflected her view: (make a change in the law), but in her post she described that the change she wanted was to require vents, not a ban. I'm not sure how that wasn't clear. 

Gella may be saying not, but I will gladdly trample your "rights" on this one. MY rights to a healthy environment totally superceed your rights to do what you want to your body. The government has a responsibility to protect the PUBLIC from smokers. Smoking should be banned in all inside public spaces without special ventilation. Smokers can smoke in their homes or outside. If they don't like it, tough. They are the ones endangering the public health. This is not a individual liberty issue, it is a public health issue. it is an area where the goverment should and must be involved.

That's BS in my opinion.

I'm a non-smoker as well... but... the bottom line is that the government doesn't have any right to legislate this.

Northampton tried a smoking ban in bars..... it didn't last long.

Most bars just worked the fine into their budget and let people keep smoking because they knew the cost of paying the fine was far less than the business they'd lose.

As far as I'm concerned, it's the right of the venue to decide what happens. If they choose to be non-smoking, then cool..... they'll draw some... and eliminate other.. patrons.

If they choose to be smoking.... they'll do the same. The Iron Horse has been non smoking for a while now..... and because they're a cool venue... people don't have an issue with it. On the other hand... places like Bishop's Lounge could NEVER go non-smoking... they'd be out of business in an instant.

All this being said... I would love it if I didn't have to breathe smoke in indoor venues.... but, if the show is good enough, I'll deal. What right do I have to tell them how to run their business?

> the cost of paying the fine was far less than the business they'd lose.

So smokers who wanted to go to bars went where instead? If all the bars don't allow smoking, who were they losing their business to? Or did smokers just decide "boy, I'm going to stay at home and drink tonight?"

It was northampton. Lots and lots of people were driving to easthampton, springfield, amherst, etc......

Not only a loss of business.... it created a LOT more drunk driving. :P

And when this country wakes up and passes a nation-wide ban? With $1B fines for routine violators? ;-)

Heh If that happens, I'll be amazed.

Hopefully the country wouldn't get THAT silly. :P

Of course... they *did* elect dubya..... ;)

I deg to biffer ;-}

As a matter of principle, smoking in bars and clubs is acceptable, but as a practical matter the non-smokers need protection. I don't mind so much that my clothes smell like smoke, I can wash them. When it is hard to breathe and Gella's life is in danger, then we have a problem. I think Bars and Clubs that want to offer smoking should have to install special ventilation systems. Otherwise smoking should be banned even in bars and clubs.

See, the way I look at it is... if you want to sit beside me and shoot up heroin, or chew some nasty tobacco, or whatever shit like that, you just go for it. Because other than me having to see it, it doesn't affect me. But no, I don't want you smoking beside me, because I have to inhale that shit whether I want to or not, if you're righttherebesideme. Smoking is something that endangers the lives of the people around you, so you can do it somewhere where it's only going to endanger people like yourself, who choose to smoke.

Here in town, minors aren't allowed to enter any establishment that allows smoking. As a result, over 50% (at my best guess) of restaurants and coffee shops and cafes in the city don't allow minors, so they can have smoking. It doesn't affect me, being over 18, but my brother and his friends can't even go for lunch or coffee at any of the establishments within walking distance of their school - they have to bus all the way downtown. The bylaw was NOT clearly thought out.. there are just as many restaurants where smoking is allowed, the only difference is that children aren't exposed to it.

Ok, see, that's just a stupid law (not that you were arguing otherwise).
Yeah, second hand smoke isn't good for kids, but not even allowing them to enter? It's like places that don't allow people under 21 (many of which are already  ____ing adults) because they serve alcohol. (which since I've turned 21, I've noticed less. I don't know if that's because it isn't a directly personal issue to me, or if things are changing).

Along these lines, did anyone else hear about the proposal (I think it was from the WHO) that minors shouldn't be allowed to see movies in which people smoke?

The funny thing about the alcohol is that if you are 18 working at a store you can sell it even though you can't buy it. Also, in Maine, if you are in a car with alcohol, it has to be a closed bottle/can and it has to be in the furthest place from anyone in the car. In Massachusettes, you can have it on the seat beside you as long as it's closed.
As far as movies go, there are some theaters that serve alcohol. I went to see Lord of the Rings at a diner/theater and all you could smell by the end was alcohol. This place is pretty cool though, you get a full meal, desert, appetizers and you sit in comfy reclinable car seats.
Sarah

Holy fuck, give us minors a little respect.

I say, outlaw cigarettes. I mean think about it. The side effects of quitting tobacco aren't really that many, and I'm sure many people wouldn't smoke if it was illegal. If it was a thousand times harder to get cigarettes and even more so to get away with smoking, how many smokers do you think there would be? Not many. And tobacco probably wouldn't even sell well on the street, as you can buy other, more effective drugs if you really want to get high. (not like I would know) And, think of how many lives we could lengthen by helping people to quit smoking and not start. Plus, there'd be next to no second-hand smoke. i'm not trying to offend any smokers, although it's a really stupid habit, but I understand it's hard to quit. But I'm sure many could if there was nowhere to buy cigarettes. In my province there are now laws that cigarettes can't be in the open, they have to be in a cupboard or behind a curtain or something. Good job, government (for once).

The side effects of quitting tobacco aren't really that many

Hahahhaaha! Hahahahahahahaaaaaa! Ha. Sorry. That's just so funny.

http://www.quitsmokingsupport.com/double.htm

"...For some people, nicotine is as addictive as heroin or cocaine, according to the U.S. Agency for Health Care Policy and Research."

http://www.umkc.edu/chtc/health/faq04-smoking.html

"The body becomes physically and psychologically dependent on nicotine causing severe dependency and increasing the difficulty of quitting."

http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/1998/12_98/pn_nic.htm

"Nicotine is a powerful addictive drug. When you take a puff on a cigarette, your brain quickly gets the message that it wants more feeding it. That's why quitting smoking is just as hard, sometimes harder, than getting off drugs like cocaine or heroin."

http://www.valmillscounselling.co.uk/withdrawal_symptoms.htm

Hmmmmm... Lessee... quitting something that scientists have defined as having the same addictive qualities as heroin and cocaine, plus becoming even more depressed than I am now afterwards? Don't think so.

That's not what I mean, though, I know that tobacco is really addictive and really hard to quit but the side effects aren't that many. If it was really that bad we could start up rehab centers.

Ah, but I think you're underestimating the willpower of an addict who doesn't want to quit his addiction.  You say that "more effective drugs" would be available...but the way people use, say, pot is totally different than how they use cigarettes.

Besides, we're already creating too many black markets through the attempt to legislate morality.

Banning cigarette smoking wouldn't be attempting to legislate morality so much as to legislate public health. In this is differs from most other drug bans because those drugs only affect the person using them.

However the rest of Michael's point is valid. Cigarette smokers are addicts, and Michael is right that there WOULD be a black market. A big one. Banning cigarettes would actually be less effective, I think than what they do now which is tax and control and reqire warnings, and make sales illegal to minors, and advertise against it, etc. No I think banning it in most public places is the best way to help smokers stop. That final step of quitting is the hardest, and that is one that they are going to have to do on their own.

Josh, could you provide me with a cite that second-hand smoke is a danger to public health?

That's AJ...

And, do you really need a cite?

Michael, come on now.... we all know that anyone inhaling ciggie smoke is at a health risk....minor as it may be.

Well,  I've LOOKED for one.  And never found it.  I'd be really interested if someone's actually been able to make this stick.

Sorry Josh and AJ.  I have a hard time keeping y'all straight with your cat pictures and changing screen names.  Heh.

Come now, michael.... those cats are COMPLETELY different colors.

And besides... you're on catpics.com! or... wait... is this fruhead.com?

;)

What can I say...other peoples' cats all look the same to me. :-)

Exactly right. Hell, I know smokers who drive 4 hours round-trip because they can buy cigarettes cheaper where they're going.

It should ALL be friggin legal.

Let people make their own choices..... are we really so pathetic that we need to make laws so that people conform to one opinion?

Yes, and banning alcohol would be a good idea for public health, too. Oh wait, we already tried that and it didn't work out too well.

Banning cigs would do the same thing. Many people simply aren't going to quit. It will create a giant black market for smokes, which would probably give rise to the new era of organized crime. Fun! :)

I really think we should get smoke out of all public places, but I still feel strongly that an individual has a right to do what they want to their own body.

Public *ENCLOSED* spaces I agree with to a point...... but by saying public places, you also include, like, city streets!!!

Are people only supposed to smoke cigarettes in their basement in the middle of the night with all the lights out?

;)

Absolutely - open air is fine. Although I do have a friend who would disagree with even that, but he's a nut. ;-)

Yes. Well, there's no second-hand alcohol (except maybe as a result of drunk driving) and alcohol isn't nearly as addictive. Someone can drink a lot of alcohol but still not be a dependant alcoholic. Leave alcohol out of this.

The reason I don't think there'd be a black market for cigarettes is that drug dealers can sell other things for people that want a buzz, for more money. Unlike alcohol, cigarettes don't give you a great big buzz after continuous use, you just get more addicted. And besides, if we really wanted to give every individual the right to do whatever they want with their body. We should legalize heroin, under this logic.

Abortion is the same. One person's right to do whatever they want with their body conflicts with another's safety (though far more directly). So why, like public smoking in some places, is it allowed?

Oh dear god. I *know* you didn't just bring abortion into this.

*shudder*

*chooses to ignore that*

I agree.  We should legalize heroin.  Regulate and tax the hell out of it, of course, but make it legal.

I agree completely.

Heroin should be decriminalized in use. But dealers and traffickers should be dealt with harshly. Floggings maybe. It's one thing to have an addiction. Its another to feed someone else's.

Better yet, legalize cocaine and heroin only for medical use. Then have the pharmacutical companies compete directly with the drug cartells. How's that for free enterprise?

About 74% of all drug related deaths are due to nicotine consumption. About 23% of all drug related deaths are due to alcohol consumption. About 3% of all drug related deaths are due to consumption of illicitit drugs. Point made?

Point taken. Drugs should be legalized!

Dear god... think of the amount of money the government could be making from taxing weed..... half the people I know smoke it.... Who the hell ever died from smoking pot?

Sure, you have a risk of lung cancer... but when you look at the relative dangers of pot and alcohol... which should be illegal, again???

Thank you, Nate! Also, thank you, Josh. Looking at the numbers I mentioned above, I submit that illegal drugs should be decriminalized, thus pulling the (financial) carpet out from under organized crime, and anything that inhibits the consumption of nicotine, short of making it a criminal offence, should be encouraged.

P.S. I'm just so pleased that both of you understood the point I made without me having to spell it out.

Out of all of the drug-related deaths for using illicit drugs, how many other do you think died to either get the drugs to the user, or to keep the drugs from getting to the user? Black markets are fun. You want to create one for cigs, too?

Cite, please?

(it's called the persistance of hope over previous experience)

Here

These aren't exactly his numbers, but they are similar and from his part of the world.

Wow.  Okay.

i agree with andrea aboot the going with the option because of the closed spaces thing but in open-air places people should be able to do what they wanna do.

but at teeeny, tiny clubs{the point, the iron horse, jammin java, etc....} should be banned.

then again, i am not even defensive enough to ban my best friend from doing it in my car, seeeeooooooooooooooo.....

Way to go on starting a huuuuuuuuuge battle between the smokers and non smokers of fhdc. I'm very impressed! :^P

huge battles are my specialties! *grins*

should the next poll be abortion or how to deal with the population crisis?

Both! as I feel that abortion is a good way to deal with the population crisis.

I agree completely.

Only if I can mention the modest proposal that I've been working on in my spare time.

 

yummy

"I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricassee or a ragout."

The people that vote for abortion are going to get hell from me.

My inner civil-libertarian is weeping, but really -- smoking in public is a public harm.  It's not just a smell issue (though I loathe that) . . . it's a respiratory debilitation issue.  Blech.

I was just thinking of a way to make a stoopid analogy to express my feeling...

See...if some people liked the practice of throwing darts randomly around them at a restaurant....you don't know that the darts will actually hit/hurt someone, how much, or who. But you are throwing around your habit in such a way as you are posing a physical threat to others around you. Sure, maybe some folks are dartthrowers like you and don't mind being hit by them, but others don't appreciate that risk and you could kill 'em with a dart to the brain! :)

I'm just sayin'...if someone was doing something like that that was clearly a risk of harm to those around them, even if they may miss everybody, we'd stop them. Sure, you can say there may not be a proven causal relationship between second hand smoke and health problems in general...but there definitely IS allergies and asthma which I think should be considered.

So have a dart-throwing room, or properly separated dart area...:)

I know that's a stoopid analogy. I'm just trying to link the concept to a more obvious example of physical threat to others.

I've had too much caffeine. Don't mind me.

 

Ok. So I would say that the the following truths are self-evident based on what you all have been saying.

1. We accept that a person's right to smoke sometinmes can and does affect the health and/or pursuit of happiness of people around them.

2. We have trouble balancing an individual's rights with that of other individuals and society in general.

3. Many of the solutions now in place are flawed and others(prohibition) probably won't work or have not worked in other situations.

Ok. So lets give up.  Not.

The only real way to change things is to make it uncool. As prohibition showed, society/government cannot effect that change by force. If people want to drink, if they think it is "cool", no amount of logic and stats. about how much damage it does to society, to the GNP, will stop them from drinking. And we find the 90 year old who has had a bottle of wine everyday since he was 12 or his buddy the 90 year old who has smoked 2 packs a day since he was old enough to strike a match and refuse to see any other fate for ourselves.

The issue all binds up nicely with a whole lot of other stuff, I think, into the "grand unified issue" without which we can't come up with the "grand unified theory" which will cover smoking, drinking, drugs, abortion, the "right" to bear arms, corporal punishment, capital punishment, the use of finite or poisonous resources just beceause we can afford it. And everything else.

That issue is, stated as simply as I can, is how much can society hold each member of society accountable to the goals of the society. Can society afford to sit by while people do things that cost not only cost the individual in health and earnings etc, but also cost society in direct and indirect costs. What is an individuals responsibility to society.

Of course I am not even thinking that big. I suppose I should have said "the world" instead of "society", just as I said "society" instead of making a strictly "national" statement.

Wow, so where did that rant come from? There were a couple of minor comments that started me thinking along a certain path but the rest kind of came to me out of left field.

Anyway, that's my ramble for now.

Peace....