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LOOK!

   Discussion: LOOK!
Agent Scully Back · 16 years, 5 months ago
http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/draft.asp
Samantha · 16 years, 5 months ago
that's unconstitutional! that infringes on my right to life.

I'm gonna thank god now for permenantly injuring me and plaguing me with asthma.

I'm sorry people. I don't believe in war. I'm not going to fight a war that I had nothing to do with, don't agree with, and at this point, almost wish I could fight from the other end.

I know.. I know.. I'm a really shirty forkin' american. Get out of the country. Bah.

I just think that America brings it's problems onto itself,and could easily prevent all the wrongdoings other people put apon us.

Anyone who doesn't agree with me needs to go have a nice long chat with a certain canadian musician named Jian.
Nik Chaikin Back · 16 years, 5 months ago
Amen. If i agree with you, can i still go have a nice long chat with Jian?
Brian Dinsky Back · 16 years, 5 months ago

Sometimes I feel I'd rather be drafted than have a conversation with Jian.  Sometimes I don't. 

Teehee.

100% dainty! Back · 16 years, 4 months ago

Amen. If i agree with you, can i still go have a nice long chat with Jian?


Yeah me too! ;)

I agree with you 100% and no need to apologize.  I'm already getting my conscientious objector stuff together.

danced with Lazlo Back · 16 years, 4 months ago

Why do i get the feeling that people aren't reading the entire thread?

Janos Back · 16 years, 4 months ago
*cough* I created it and I'm still not reading it all... *cough*
Agent Scully Back · 16 years, 4 months ago
they aren't.

I even posted something from snopes and it looks like no one even bothered to glance at it.
100% dainty! Back · 16 years, 4 months ago
I was reading the entire thread. But I usually reply to things as I go.  I have doubts about whether the draft legislation will actually pass, and I know fully well that it is not clearly divided across party lines.  I don't see it as a democrat vs. republican thing. I simply do not think it is right, and if I were drafted for the military, I'd do my best to get conscientious objector status.  However, to do that, you need a significant body of evidence that you oppose the war for moral reasons. So I'm saving all of the articles that mention me being at anti-war protests, all of my anti-war articles in my zines, etc etc.
danced with Lazlo Back · 16 years, 4 months ago

The thing's not gonna pass. No one really wants the draft, it's just a bit of petty partisanship at the expense of we, the youth of majority age of America. The anti-war democrats who authored this piece of shit are trying to scare the American people into forcing the administration's hand into ending the war prematurely.

Are you sure you're against it? :P

A.J. Back · 16 years, 4 months ago
Just to clarify Gella's phrase "Anti-war Democrats", there is a difference between being against the Iraq war, or against the current administration's very poor foreign policy choices in general, and wanting to abandon the Iraqis to the mess we've put them in.

I don't think there are many people who want to do that. Some, yes, I think the guys who wrote this bill may be some of those, but there are plenty of people who dislike Bush's actions, who still support a rational and positive exit strategy.
100% dainty! Back · 16 years, 4 months ago

Yeah I am sure I am against it.  I don't think the draft is right in any war, even if people from all classes and sexes are eligible for it. 

I opposed the Iraq war and I still oppose the occupation. This, however, does not mean that I think we should leave the Iraqis all alone after we've created such a mess there.  I don't know exactly what should be done, but I know that our military presence there is causing more harm than good. 

danced with Lazlo Back · 16 years, 4 months ago

Fleh! Not against the draft... I know you're against the draft. EVERYONE'S against the draft. Even the authors of the bill are, I believe against the draft. Like I said *NO ONE* wants the draft.

*grumbles about stuff I can't say around here and wanders off*

A.J. Back · 16 years, 4 months ago
Of course you can say it around here. The narrow minded people already hate you, and the rest of us love you anyway. I for one have been looking for a time to discuss the war with you. I'm interested in your perception of how it is going. Do you really see it going well, or are you dissapointed with the way things are being handled?

Also I'm interested in your support of Bush. I understand your support of the war, but that is easy to understand. Support of Bush is MUCH harder for me to understand. I don't see you as being a one issue voter, and aside from getting rid of Saddam, I can't think of much else positive Bush had done. What about the environment, what about the deficit, what about courruption in government, what about the loss of civil liberties? I'm not attacking your beliefs, but I'm interested in why you would support Bush who I have to imagine you'd be critical of in many other areas, even if you think is foreign policy is spot on, instead of Kerry, who will probably wrap up Iraq as effecively as Bush (IMHO) and who will be so much better in other areas.
danced with Lazlo Back · 16 years, 4 months ago
Hey, don't go talking about me supporting Bush around here. You don't know that I support Bush. *insert shifty-eyed dog*
A.J. Back · 16 years, 4 months ago
I guess I don't know. I actually hope you don't particularly support him, because I hate that man with all my body and soul, and it has very little to do with the war, and everything to do with everything else.

But a while back you did proclaim "I'm pro-war and i'm voting for Bush", so you can see how I'd think you might support him. Like I said I think it would be great to discuss some time. :)
100% dainty! Back · 16 years, 4 months ago
I agree with AJ actually. I'd love to hear your point of view.
danced with Lazlo Back · 16 years, 4 months ago

I know.. I know.. I'm a really shirty forkin' american. Get out of the country. Bah.

*blink* creating your own opposition?

And it's not even good opposition. I always say, if you're going to argue for the other side, use their best arguments, not their worst. That way you know you have the upper hand.

Talcott Back · 16 years, 4 months ago
"I always say, if you're going to argue for the other side, use their best arguments, not their worst. That way you know you have the upper hand."

I'd just like to mention that I really like that line :-)
Nik Chaikin · 16 years, 5 months ago
Guess I'd better move north soon. where's the best place in Canada to live that's affordable?
Samantha Back · 16 years, 5 months ago

I heard somewhere that it's Toronto.

Victoria Back · 16 years, 4 months ago

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Hey, I actually was planning to move (temporarily) to the Yukon awhile back.  Groovy.

Talcott · 16 years, 5 months ago
Firstly, the text sounds awfully similar to the rumors that have been floating around the internet since 2001.

Secondly, it couldn't go through right now. The war (or at least how it's being handled) isn't at a high popularity level, even in congress. Just on political/partisian grounds, none of the dems would vote for it (not in an election year at least) and there are a handful of repbulicans who probably wouldn't (which would be enough).

Thirdly, it's not really needed. Military recruitment is still going up. While there are many more soilders overseas than we've had for a while, there isn't an actual lack to troops at the moment. Even if there were, the selective service is already up and running, as any of the guys who've accepted finiantial aid can tell you. Now, this bill might be aimed at requiring women to sign up too, but while maybe a precurser, that isn't the start of the draft.

Foruth, how would they do it practically? Just opening the draft to both sexes is going to cause a firestorm. How would the reconcile "don't ask, don't tell"? Would getting out of the draft be as easy as telling someone you were gay (and if they thought you were trying to get out, how exactly would they test to see if you were lying or not?) What about the Americans With Disabilities Act?

I really don't think we're in danger of seing the happen soon, and if they do rush it through, it's going to be much eaiser to get around than it was before.

danced with Lazlo · 16 years, 5 months ago
Look... this bill has been around for a long time already, and it is NOT the Bush administration pushing for it. The Bush administration and specifically the Rumsfeld pentagon are fiercely opposed to the draft. They rightly recognize that the highly skilled highly motivated voluntary force that we have now is far superior to a conscription force. You know who's been pushing hardest for this legislation? Anti-war democrats like Charles Rangel. Do your research.
Talcott Back · 16 years, 5 months ago
I do remember them putting one like this up, but I didn't know if it was this one.

I still don't quite get their logic of "if rich people's kids can be drafted, then we won't go to war" though. I mean, it wasn't exactly a cross-section that went through the past drafts.
Janos Back · 16 years, 5 months ago
Well if it has been around for a long while, I haven't heard of it. I don't usually pay much attention to politics and news and stuff like that... but when I found this last night it caught me off guard and I was a little upset. *sigh*
A.J. Back · 16 years, 5 months ago
Gella is more or less right about this. The support for a military draft does not break down along party lines. There are republicans for and against and democrats for and against each for their own reasons.

I'm not so sure I would trust this administration not to have a secret agenda on the draft. I think they know the All Volunteer Force is better, but it may not produce enough cannon fodder for their plans for continual war, so I think they may have it in the back of their minds as a back up.

However Gella is totally correct that people like John Conyers (liberal Democrat, and my rep) support this bill. They are totally out of their fucking minds, but they think it will help reign in military adventurism.

The reason that they think that is that there will not be deferments for the upper classes this time, and the logic goes, if the rich have to put their kids on the line, then there won't be war. This is not only patently stupid, it ignores the rights of all young Americans to decide their own futures, not get killed, and to decline to travel the world, meet strange and interesting people and kill them.

In my opinion, any military operation that cannot be staffed by volunteers is inheirently a bad one. The all volunteer force gives us a veto. If we don't like what the government is doing we can just not sign up. A draft, far from holding the government in check, gives them endless resources to persue whatever policy they want, no matter how wrong headed.
dgodwin Back · 16 years, 5 months ago

Almost fits the occasion (and I didn't make it.. I stole it!  Bhawaha)

goovie is married! Back · 16 years, 4 months ago
that? is the best thing ever. thank you.
EcowarriorII · 16 years, 5 months ago
As far as moving up north is concerned I don't think thats gonna work this time. Last I heard canada will ship people back if they are planning to dodge. But I can't back that up
A.J. Back · 16 years, 5 months ago
You are correct. There are new agreements in place to prevent that. Basically if that bill goes through (doubtful) all you kids under 26 are totally fucked. Get active about it!

NO DRAFT!
MAC Back · 16 years, 5 months ago
IM TOO YOUNG TO DIE IM ONLY 16 SO THIS BETTER GET DEFEATED SOON!!
Bender · 16 years, 5 months ago
What is this website? It's clearly not an official U.S. Government site.
MAC Back · 16 years, 5 months ago
i concur but im still being paranoid. the government wouldnt say they were "sneaking" legislature through.
Agent Scully Back · 16 years, 5 months ago
do a whois on the webpage

use godaddy.com or whois.com
lawrence · 16 years, 5 months ago
even though the legislation has been basically set aside and will not likely be brought to the full House and Senate any time soon, it's definitely a good thing to be aware of, so that we can do everything we can to make sure we don't vote into office people who would send unwilling participants to go die for someone else's country.

Personally, I think this is the sort of thing the Constitution should be amended to specifically deal with - "No citizen shall be forced into military or government service." That would put an end to any possibility of the draft coming back.
Andrea Krause Back · 16 years, 5 months ago
What about in the event that we ourselves are invaded? Or do you figure in that case there'd be so many volunteers it wouldn't matter? And that's not arguing, I'm truly curious, since you said "for someone else's country."  I was curious if you thought the draft would EVER be appropriate, e.g. it was to fight in THIS country.
lawrence Back · 16 years, 5 months ago
very hard to say. I think that in all likelihood, if there were a war with universal support - i.e. a WWII type situation - there'd be no shortage of volunteers to defend the country.

I'm still pretty much 100% opposed to any sort of draft, though, and if they were to implement some kind of forced service, there would HAVE to be an alternative to combat. I'm willing to serve my country if I have to, but there's no way in hell I'm going to risk dying young for it.
A.J. Back · 16 years, 4 months ago
I answered this question in my mind long ago. There is no situation that justifies a draft. If the Martians invaded us tomorrow it still comes down to whether people are willing to fight them. If they'd rather be a Martian slave than fight, that seems to me to be a legitimate choice. Nobody should ever under ANY circumstances be forced to be in the military. In fact nobody should be forced to do any kind of service. Encouraged, ok fine, but ultimately the decision must be left up to the individual. That is basic liberty.
Joe Navratil Back · 16 years, 4 months ago
On the other hand, if we had mandatory service like a bunch of European and Middle Eastern countries do, I'd like to think that (in time -- obviously, not the next day) having an administration made up primarily of people that never served and were more than willing to send other peoples' children to die against the wishes of others in the administration who had served and truly understood the gravity of what was being asked (whew, that was a convoluted clause) would be a thing of the past.

Of course, I can comfortably say that on the safe side of 26, so perhaps my opinion (or, in this case, devil's advocate) is unimportant.

(PS -- late edit -- yeah, I know "mandatory service" != "the draft". I'd be more in favor of the former than the latter, which isn't to say that I'm particularly in favor of either)
A.J. Back · 16 years, 4 months ago
To be in the house of representatives you must be 25. To be a senator you must be 30. To be president you have to be 35. In most cases the people in these positions are MUCH older. Should these people get to decide whether people who are 18-26 have to serve or not? I don't THINK so.
danced with Lazlo Back · 16 years, 4 months ago
Presumption of liberty. We are free people as a given. That is the standard and the burden that all else must be measured against. Youth of majority age do not need to gain judicial emancipation to claim their rights to self determination. They must be legally declared incompetent after full due process of judicial proceedings in order for self determination to be denied them. There are two and only two areas where compulsion of total service can enter constitutionally into the framework of our nation. One is basic education, because it is the only way so far to enhance the rights of children beyond the status and circumstance of their birth or the abuses of their parents and society, and because it is necessary for the functioning of a consent based informed demcracy like we strive to be, and the other is military service... because it is essential for the survival of the nation. it just so happens that the survival of the nation and its people is much better served through a voluntary military force. Because compulsive military service fails the test of its existance... it can no longer be constitutionally enforced except in a time of extreme national need. Mandatory national service in favor of the benign goals of a few enlightened bureaucrats fails all constitutional tests.

In a nation like Israel, the test of survival need is met, and the size and skill level of the population makes military compulsion make a lot more sense. I would however move to change Israeli military participation from compulsary to ubiquitous. Either way you would have a 90%+ rate of participation and all of the benefits that come from it... but there must be better, more consent-based, methods of attaining that.
A.J. Back · 16 years, 4 months ago
I don't know the details of the Israeli situation, beyond general knowlege, but I agree that a consent-based system would be both more effective and more moral. If the culture is one in which there is a social expectation of service, you are right, most people would serve voluntarily and it would be a much better sytem than a universal draft.

Also I would like to point out that nowhere in our constitution does it mention the draft. There wasn't a draft in this country until 1863, and the framers of the constitution probably never imagined a draft, as they really didn't envision even a large standing army.

Congress does have to provide for national defense, but the power to draft is an assumption, not something spelled out. When the first draft was instituted in 1863 it caused riots. I don't think it is clear that the people ever ceeded the right to draft to the congress, and the tenth amendment states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." So I don't think it is even clear that it is proper for congress to draft people.
dirty life & times Back · 16 years, 4 months ago
the israeli military doesn't need bodies above all right now. (speaking as a body who wasn't much needed, but i digress....)

i think that there should be compulsory national service for every single israeli (from ultra-orthodox to arab, male & female) but each person can choose to serve in the military or in communities (helping at schools, nursing homes etc.) & there would just be slightly fewer incentives to serving in the military.

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