US wages holy war on Iraq

Courtesy of the WTF are they THINKING? Dept.

"U.S. Government calls for citizens to pray and fast so God will help win the war"

Haven't these people even heard of seperation of church and state?

This longer this goes on, the more Bush, Congress, and our country in general, will look like fools.

They've shown time and time again that they do not. It is time for them to be replaced by people who can actually lead our country in a responsible and un-biased fashion.

Thank God resolutions mean absolutely nothing.

Our gov't needs a serious overhaul. DUH!

Um, the Congress can pass a resolution calling for a day of prayer or whatever. That is not what "separation of church and state" means. It means they cannot pass a LAW respecting an establishment of religion (either endorsing or prohibiting a religion). There is nothing in the Constitution or our system of government which states that members of the government cannot express their faith and beliefs and urge others two. What they cannot do is pass a law imposing that faith/belief on you.

Okay, you are correct.  Thanks for the clarification.

But they're perfectly free to impose their beliefs on me in a non-legal way. Oh goodie!

The fact is, religion has no place in this.

Waging holy war because someone waged holy war just ain't a great idea.... and that's the way much of the world is viewing this. Every time dubyah or some other idiotic republican gets up and says that "god is behind us" or some other nonsense, it just reinforces that opinion, and increases the feelings of resentment against our country.

My Jehovah's witness friend was talking about this. How everyone will turn to god, than turn away, and than the world will end. umm.. I don't know if I believe that, but this conversation made me think of it.

Yeah, but..... a JW? Come on now.

It is time for them to be replaced by people who can actually lead our country in a responsible and un-biased fashion.

And who, exactly, should have the power to decide when and how the President and Congress should be replaced?  Look, I think this resolution is pretty ridiculous...but fact is, there's nothing legally wrong with it as far as I can see.  I certainly don't agree with a lot of this administration's policies, but I don't see how you can say that they need to be replaced without seriously damaging even more of the foundations of our constitutional government.

This resolution says nothing about a "holy war."  A holy war is fought for religious reasons and, while I'm sure the Bush administration has some ulterior motives (*cough*oil*cough*) for "liberating the Iraqi people," I don't believe that converting them to Christianity or reclaiming some sort of holy land, etc., is one of them.  There's nothing wrong with appealing to any deity you believe in for assistance or guidance during conflict.  Granted, I don't think prayer should be as public as some politicians are making it, but they're still not "imposing their beliefs" on anyone.

They most certainly are imposing their beliefs on people.

What right does a government have to say that I should pray or fast? Granted, it's not law... but just the audacity of that suggestion is enough to make me furious. How dare they assume that everyone in this country has the same beliefs that they do?

And, as far as the "holy war" thing..... I'm simply saying that's the way it's being viewed by much of the country.... as us saying "oh yeah? Our god is better than yours!"

Bush's statements of how god will stand behind our country certainly do nothing to help, either.... in fact, that's what started this nonsense.

Then it's only being viewed that way by people who don't know what they're talking about.  And, it's the same god.  I'm pretty sure even Bush knows that.

One group of right wing radical religious whackos against another...

Especially when you get into translations. Many other countries don't take the saying "god bless america" as lightly as we do.

I can think of a lot of ways to describe Saddam's regime.  "Religious" is not one of them.  He uses religion as an excuse for waging war.  Bush is only using it as consolation and encouragement.  He's not even claiming that this war is for religious reasons, but for moral ones that the god he believes in would support.  (Those reasons obviously aren't the only ones, but that's beside the point.)

And, Nate...you have a really uncanny ability to make me defend people I disagree with.

"The only thing that separates us from the animals are mindless superstition and pointless ritual. "

-Latka, on "Taxi"

Nate, where are they saying that you SHOULD? The phrase used is "calling on", not "should". And the resolution is generally worded as "prayer and fasting", not necessarily to the Christian god (although that may be implied). The vast majority of American profess a belief in a God and most of the religion do take the view that humans are inherently flawed creatures.

If you're an atheist or agnostic I could see how you could be miffed, but being "furious" sounds like you have some other issues. They aren't holding a gun to your head and saying do it, so why get all worked up by someone else's assinine statements?

Who knows... if they're right.. damn.. that's going to suck. If not, Woohoo!!

well, look at it this way...

"Whereas all of the various faiths of the people of the United States have recognized, in our religious traditions, the need for fasting and humble supplication before Providence;"

This is a blatantly false statement. Not all of the faiths of the people of the united states recognize humble supplication before Providence as a valid practice. Forget atheists and agnostics... The most basic form of Buddhism does not. Just for example. Buddhism is not about providence, it is about Awakening. A governmental body is making a statement that basically discounts that this section of the American population exists. The resolution is based on false premises. And while passing a resolution is not the same as passing a law, it still goes against the spirit of the first amendment to the US constitution.

You don't need to have a gun held to your head in order to be coerced or harrassed or marginalized. Things like this resolution lead very directly to these sorts of problems. The government should not be officially calling on the American people to fast and to pray. The American government is not supposed to officially endorse religious practice. That is the spirit of the constitution. The fact that it happens doesn't mean that its right and doesn't mean that it shouldn't change.

And no, I don't think that this has anything to do with "holy war." I think that this has to do with the ignorance that has always existed in this country and in every other country in this world that we are *constantly* fighting to overcome. I think that this is a purely domestic issue, war rhetoric aside, and I think that this should be dealt with as an attack not on Iraq but on freedom loving free-thinking Americans.

Exactly.

Quickly turns up the volume listening to J.S.Bach's Art of the Fugue

:P

They DO need to be replaced, but there is really no way to do that effectively. There are too many religious fanatics in this country who would just ellect another religious fanatic to congress should this one be replaced. Basically you would have to scrap democracy to truly "replace" these people, and I don't think we really want to go down THAT road.

If everyone voted their conscience, the two big parties would have no choice other than to shape up or ship out.