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Poll: I say "I don't need a bag" (or bring my own bag)

Even if it's inconvenient 4 (13%)
Only when it's convenient 19 (59%)
When I remember 7 (22%)
Never - it wouldn't make much difference 1 (3%)
Some other scenario for some other reason 1 (3%)
   Discussion: Do you really need to bag my Clif Bar?
Mamalissa! · 17 years ago
NYC is the home of overbagging counter clerks. It never ceases to amaze me how much the phrase "I don't need a bag" shocks some of them. I just got some lunch and the woman couldn't believe that I was ok without a paper bag around my Nantucket Nectar. I really only do it when it's convenient for me to carry whatever I've bought - if I have a bag with me or am right by my home or office and can drop it off. Sometimes, I'll ask too late, and they'll take the item out and throw the bag away. Like my box of tissues and a new toothbrush have suddenly contaminated the whole thing. Oh, and why do I do it? Just seems wasteful. They're spending $ on something that'll be thrown out and more $ will get spent on it the trash or recycle bin. It might be of negligable benefit to the world, but I don't think it's making anything worse.
lawrence Back · 17 years ago
it happens all over the place. it's poor training, really. the retail drones are trained so specifically to follow one and only one procedure and they aren't required to really think logically about anything. so it becomes 'scan, accept payment, bag.' equally annoying are the ones who hand all change in a pile, rather than separating the coins from the bills.

grocery baggers are the worst. I've discovered that the reason they love plastic bags so much is that they now don't need to bag intelligently - they can just throw everything in and the heavier stuff will settle to the bottom. I always use paper, and the baggers have no clue how to put stuff in, and the cashier is unhelpful by holding the heavier items to be scanned last, instead of first so they can go right into bags. this is why I usually bag my own groceries - of course, when I do that, they send someone over, because they assume I must be struggling and didn't choose to bag my own.
danced with Lazlo Back · 17 years ago
Excuse you. Bag as you scan is one step in a set of rules that affects inventory accuracy. If you bag the customer's purchases as you scan them, you're not going to get confused and scan something twice, or forget to scan something. Just watch who you call a mindless drone.
lawrence Back · 17 years ago
And the point is that procedure needs to be modified for small numbers of items that don't need to be bagged. And it isn't. Because clerks don't often think about it - the procedure tells them what to do so they don't even have to think. So they bag your one small item because of that inflexible procedure.

what ever happened to actually using logic to come up with a solution to a problem? phone customer service has the same issue - they're reading from a script and simply refuse to use any kind of logic to come up with a solution to something that isn't in their script.
danced with Lazlo Back · 17 years ago
You're so damn sure of yourself, aren't you? You'd better learn to say the words "in my experience" because you're just digging yourself deeper and deeper with your generalizations.
lawrence Back · 17 years ago
what makes you so sure I'm even talking about your particular retail position, your particular store, or your particular style? you know, I'm pretty sure you're among a small number of people in your position who not only are willing to use logic and reason to do your job, but demand and require it from yourself - I know you're not willing to be bound by a narrow script or procedure, in work or in life. The problem is, most people (retail or not) are, or simply don't care enough to change it.

I am describing experiences that have been consistent every time I've ever had to deal with these situations, from the perspective of the customer. You seem to be taking it as a personal attack against you and are pulling only from your own personal experience in retail as an employee.
danced with Lazlo Back · 17 years ago
My beef, Lawrence, is that I work in a store and for a company which takes pride in its hiring practices, and the overwhelming majority of whose employees are, for the most part, of the same mind as I concerning the use of logic and intuition in every situation. It is one of the companies foundation principles in fact. We limit policy in favor of intuition, intelligence, logic and flexibility. Yes, I take it as a personal attack because I alog with my company have gotten swept up in your generalization.

Learn to temper your language, sir. You have a tendency toward the confrontational off the bat which in turn puts people on the defensive or counter-offensive. You use the language of absolute God-like certainty which, quite frankly, grates. Think about who may be included in your categorizations and generalizations before you speak, learn to qualify your statements, and maybe the world will be a better place.

nate... Back · 17 years ago
Yes, but you work for a VERY unusual store. Most places "hiring practice" is, "Are they willing to work for as little as we can possibly pay by law... and will they start immediately?"
Bender Back · 17 years ago
Just quit it.

This isn't about you! It's not!
danced with Lazlo Back · 17 years ago
And you're yelling at me why?
nate... Back · 17 years ago
Well, I don't want to speak for her... but.... because you're going off on someone based on something that wasn't directed at you? I mean, I can see how he touched a nerve.... but... you have to understand that you're in a VERY small minority in your retail experience...
Bender Back · 17 years ago
Please. Speak for me. I'll make an ass of myself, otherwise ;P
hkath Back · 17 years ago
You know what? It touched the same nerve in me but I didn't get to it fast enough and had to read the fight instead of participating in it.

I don't think that Lawrence was specifically talking about Gella or me or anybody. It was his general dismissal of the intelligence of John Q. Clerk that was insulting. He doesn't know these people. He doesn't know what their training was like. He doesn't know whether there were twelve (12) other customers before him who acted indignant and demanded bags for their one (1) candy bar/juice/hairbrush/DVD/jar of screws, or if the person is subtly trying to accelerate the depletion of the earth's resources by handing out bags to each and every person regardless of what they bought.

Personally, I don't give people bags for one item. Sometimes I give them bags for 2 items if I see they're carrying a lot or have a little kid or something. But there's this lady who's OBSESSED. She came in, got only one thing and then berated me for not giving her a bag, saying that I gave bags to everyone else in the whole store except for her.

The next time she came, I asked her if she wanted a bag and she berated me for asking. Apparently it should be beyond question that she get a bag. I haven't seen her since then. Thought it'd be a funny, appropriate story to share. I don't think the "problem" is on one side of the counter or another. It's just one of those things people sometimes disagree on, regardless of what side of the counter they're on. Because they're people, and people have different values and opinions.

The cashiers giving away bags for single candy bars are probably also the customers who demand bags for single candy bars.

There you go.

nate... Back · 17 years ago
*bows out* I don't know why so much of this stuff devolves into flame wars... but... I don't want any part of it.
nate... Back · 17 years ago
*he says, and then responds to the next message...* :D
zil Back · 17 years ago
> *bows out* I don't know why so much of this stuff devolves into flame > wars... but... I don't want any part of it.
I think it comes from feeling like some people here think less of others... but I don't want to flame anyone. I was just commenting. but it does fee a bit tense, eh?
Bender Back · 17 years ago
On the internet, everything has much lower stakes.

The threaded commenting system is also a factor; it lets pissing matches go on indefinitely.
nate... Back · 17 years ago
eh, yes and no. But.. see, that's one of the things about here. We all actually DO know each other, which is very different from most online forums. (er, I should say... many of us actually know each other.... there are still some people here I've never met IRL)
Bender Back · 17 years ago
yes, we know each other. however, the fact remains that we do not have to deal with the immediate effects of our words.
nate... Back · 17 years ago
I'm not so sure that's true. I think it's fairly clear that we DO have to deal with the immediate effects.
Bender Back · 17 years ago
but not in person. if we're pissed off, we can just close the window and ignore that person's messages. for the most part, we have very limited realspace contact with each other.

or maybe I'm full of shit :P
Bruce Rose Back · 17 years ago

but not in person. if we're pissed off, we can just close the window and ignore that person's messages.

Sure... but we don't.

Bender Back · 17 years ago
fair enough :)
nate... Back · 17 years ago
it's ... weird. I think here people take it more personally, perhaps, because this has always been an "amongst friends" community... so it's a bit harder to write someone off as a flamer or a troll. It gets far more complicated when you can't just write it off as that.
hkath Back · 17 years ago
Did I sound angry? Because I wasn't. And my post was mostly funny.
danced with Lazlo Back · 17 years ago
"the retail drones are trained so specifically to follow one and only one procedure and they aren't required to really think logically about anything."

"procedure needs to be modified for small numbers of items that don't need to be bagged. And it isn't."

"what ever happened to actually using logic to come up with a solution to a problem?"

"they're reading from a script and simply refuse to use any kind of logic to come up with a solution to something that isn't in their script."

No, these weren't directed specifically at me. Nor are generalized mysogynistic remarkes often directed specifically at me. Nor homophobic remarks. Nor anti-Semitic remarks. Its not quite the same thing, no, but its the same language of sweeping generalization, barely qualified with an afterthought of "oh, but I don't mean you" that gets to me. Retail is a frowned upon profession. You work a register, people assume you're an idiot. Period. I suprise and delight my customers simply by being able to string together a coherant sentence. When I astonish them by solving all of their organizational problems with an expertly designed custom closet space plan... anyway, yeah, its a touchy subject for me. And yes, I find Lawrence's generalizations insulting.

I and my coworkers *are* required to think logically.

Procedure is modified all the time to fit every unique situation.

My whole business is about using logic to come up with solutions to problems.

I do customer service on the phone. We don't use scripts.

Yes, we are the exception. We are an exception. The exception exists. The generalization is false. His language should therefore be modified. That's how I feel about it.

nate... Back · 17 years ago
Yes, we are the exception. We are an exception. The exception exists. The generalization is false. His language should therefore be modified. That's how I feel about it.

I agree that applying this to all is false, yes.... because there are the VERY VERY rare circumstances, like yours, where it doesn't apply.

But, generalizations tend to be there for a reason... because GENERALLY cashiers are disinterested teenagers who could get fired that day and not care.

I can't speak for lawrence, but, speaking for myself, I don't "look down" on any profession. Hell, I was a cook for many many years, and if there's any profession that is shat upon completely, that's it. :P

Anyway, my point is *wookie noise* that I'm sure you've BEEN a customer to one of the 99% of retail clerks who don't give a rats ass... so... it surprised me that you'd take personally something that the other 99% got called on it. *shrugs*

zil Back · 17 years ago
wait, can you make the wookie noise again? ;-)
nate... Back · 17 years ago
*snort*
zil Back · 17 years ago
no, I think it was a very good point to make, can you reiterate it puulease? :-)
nate... Back · 17 years ago
no, ask victoria to do it... she makes the noise much better. :)
Victoria Back · 17 years ago

Aww, Nate, if only you could have seen my silent *squee* when I read that wookie reference.  Now I have to go to FalconRidge, don't I?  We'll have to work at getting the Goulais River Rats a performance slot, as they're my ride.

It's very difficult to not get a bag.  I don't shop a lot, but this is a challenge of mine.  I try to tell them I don't need a bag, but those sneaky cashiers stick it in the bag while I'm distracted by change-fishing or something!

A good one was when Nathalie, my boss, told the person that she didn't want a bag and the person told her, "There's a garbage bin just outside the store where you can throw it out."

nate... Back · 17 years ago
hehe Yeah, you DEFINITELY have to get to falcon ridge, darnit. :)
A.J. Back · 17 years ago
You know what though? I don't think it is really 99%. I bet it is more like 40% but just seems like more. I've been thinking about it, and it really isn't fair to say that MOST clerks I deal with are lazy/stupid/incompetent. Those are just the ones I tend to remember. Clerks who do a good job make for a seamless transaction and basically don't call any attention to themselves, so I forget them. The lady at the drug store is selling me some soap. She doesn't have a chance to redesign my closets, so I'm not going to really notice her in a positive way, but if she isn't a moron, I'm not likely to notice her in a negative way either. Thinking about it I see a lot more clerks in life than really annoy me, so they can't ALL be that bad. Some of them are, but not all.
Andrea Krause Back · 17 years ago
I very much agree with this. I think many or most humans tend to remember negative experiences better than positive or neutral ones. The angst/stress/annoyance kinda writes the experience to your brain with darker ink. :) Same goes for a relationship...if you fight 30% of the time you're going to feel like you fight 90% of the time.

I don't have many cashier problems. But I'm also pretty laid back about those things and wouldn't much care how things were bagged or not bagged as long as, like, my rolls don't get crushed. :) When I have small numbers of items, the cashier asks if I need a bag and when I say no, it goes fine.

A lot of us have a natural tendency to ascribe idiocy to the stranger who dealt us an annoyance during the course of the day. It's natural to feel that frustration and it's even natural to think "what an idiot." But that doesn't mean it's right or fair. Some are, most probably aren't. I'm sure everyone does something in their job that either is a mistake or is part of what they're instructed to do which others view as stupid or unnecessary. I don't think we all want ourselves and our profession written off entirely because of it.

Edited because for some reason all my line breaks never happened...dunno if some post above messed that up.
nate... Back · 17 years ago
Edited because for some reason all my line breaks never happened...dunno if some post above messed that up.

Yeah, I've been having to manually do my line breaks in this thread... weird.

stealthlori Back · 17 years ago
i've been having to do them in several different threads the past few days ... i thought it was just me and my flaking machine, but evidently not.

hey josh! whazzup with that? :D *bows to the fhdc god*
Misch Back · 17 years ago
Murphy's Law. It sorta shows that well remember negative experiences more. Cash Register Corrolary; If you're waiting in line for a cashier, and there are 2 other lanes open on either side of you, all things being equal, you will only be served first 1/3 of the time. So "more often then not, someone else is served faster than you." Perhaps that's why the grocery stores near me have only 2 adjacent lanes open at any time...
lawrence Back · 17 years ago
I can't speak for lawrence, but, speaking for myself, I don't "look down" on any profession. Hell, I was a cook for many many years, and if there's any profession that is shat upon completely, that's it. :P

I, too, don't look down on specific professions. I do, however, as you have all noticed, have certain gripes with the way a lot of people in some professions act, are trained, and do their jobs (or fail to do their jobs, in some cases).

I'm not going to judge an individual because of their profession. However, I feel that I am perfectly justified in claiming that it is stupid, ignorant, and lazy, when someone performs their job poorly because they choose not to use their brain or because their employer has too rigid procedures and they refuse to bend those procedures in the name of common sense.
Andrea Krause Back · 17 years ago

For some people...bending employer's rigid procedures in the name of common sense threatens job security. Not every case, but someone who needs to worry everyday about keeping a job can often certainly be afraid to rock the boat in any fashion. I think certain documentation procedures at my job are unnecessary and common sense would dictate we don't do them. But if I don't do them, if I fail the documentation audits, my rating gets lowered, and my income is in jeopardy. Doesn't make the common sense any less valid, but I'm not going to use it to the detriment to my making a living.

I can see the bunny Back · 17 years ago
For some people...bending employer's rigid procedures in the name of common sense threatens job security.

I've worked in retail for a long time and in some places I've found this to be true. Putting something in a bag with the company name on it fits into advertisting and therefore the Powers That Be want *everything* put into a bag.
lawrence Back · 17 years ago
Learn to temper your language, sir. You have a tendency toward the confrontational off the bat which in turn puts people on the defensive or counter-offensive. You use the language of absolute God-like certainty which, quite frankly, grates. Think about who may be included in your categorizations and generalizations before you speak, learn to qualify your statements, and maybe the world will be a better place.

you know, this might have been a lot more meaningful if you hadn't been the one to say it.
Andrea Krause Back · 17 years ago

Who might it have been meaningful from? Because...it's not untrue. Though it's also not exclusive to your posts.

Even if you feel Gella does not practice what she preaches...doesn't mean the preaching is inherently incorrect.

A.J. Back · 17 years ago
What Andrea said, plus, woah, WAY personal attack dude.
Bender Back · 17 years ago
whoa, killa.
Annika Back · 17 years ago
erm... I'm phone customer service and I don't use a script...
Kris 'engaged' Bedient Back · 17 years ago
yay! go you! *hugs*
A.J. Back · 17 years ago
Yes, but at least in the case of supermarkets, bag as you scan is not the standard proceedure. Usually there, checkers scan everything first, or scan until the "chute" area is full, at which point they either stop and bag a bit, or they get a bagger. I think the typical number of items is what makes the difference, that or it is just that supermarkets have a different culture.
Bruce Rose Back · 17 years ago
Supermarkets are a different culture.  Most of the major ones (in my experience) are unionized.  Since I've never been in a union, I'll stop there.
meh Back · 17 years ago
And if they take off that "drone training" you mention, and don't bag small orders? People who want the bags (usually for other reasons - need a new trash bag in the car, for instance) will bitch at them. As for grocery baggers bagging things improperly (esp in plastic bags, but also in paper) that actually is a product of lax training, or not having paid attention to their training. A good store includes the "right way" (and sometimes equally "right" variations) in their training. If you don't think they'll bag in the order you want, group things together when you put them on the belt/counter. I started doing that back when I worked at Wal-Mart, and still do. All cold items go together, all crushables are close together, etc.
ChrisChin is Getting Old Back · 17 years ago
agreed, it is a waste. When I tend to just have one bottle or a couple of items where I don't need a bag, I tend to hold on to them or keep them close to me as I'm giving the money so that they don't have the chance to pick the item up and put them in a bag. They tend to figure out that I don't want a bag at that point. Though, some counter clerks take the bag out and open it before they even ring up the purchase and then I just have to tell them that I don't need it.
zil Back · 17 years ago
I'm just speaking from my own experience here, but in the multitude of bagger/cashier jobs I've held its usually not the employee but the employer who pushes this "over baggingness". it helps to keep inventory. scan-bag-scan-bag helps to cut down on scanning errors. it also helps to be able to tell, from a suporvisors point of view, who has already paid and who might be shop lifting. as a grunt I remember being in trouble for NOT bagging a persons order... eventhough it was just a soda. oviously not all buisnesses are like this but a lot that I know of would rather you do exactly as they tell you and try your darndest NOT to improvise. I wish I worked where gella does. dude. I hate getting the feeling that some of this thread might be assuming that these workers are brainless...
Mamalissa! Back · 17 years ago
Thanks, Zil.  I've been overwhelmed by the turn of events above - I was trying to make a light-hearted post, but seems I hit a nerve.  Your explanation makes a lot of sense. 
zil Back · 17 years ago
omg I actually HELPED? the problem is that even the most innocent/just in jest posts can set off someone. I've been the set offer before and it can feel a bit rough. you know you didn't mean to start anything angry-making with it so donna worry. :-D *hugs* I'm all smiley, I don't usually help the situations.
nate... Back · 17 years ago
Yeah, gella works for the Best Company Ever™ :)
danced with Lazlo Back · 17 years ago
Yes. Yes I do. :D
goovie is married! Back · 17 years ago
honestly? i've never had a problem with this. if i say, "no, thanks--i can put it in my bag" or "no, thanks--i actually live, like, right down the block," people listen.
Bruce Rose Back · 17 years ago
Must be a Chicago thing.  I've never really had that problem either.
goovie is married! Back · 17 years ago
in fact, people tend to ask first if i want a bag. i really appreciate that. because usually i've got a bigass bookbag or messenger bag with me, and there's so no point in wasting a plastic bag when i can just toss the item into my own bag.
goovie is married! · 17 years ago
...
ChrisChin is Getting Old Back · 17 years ago
o.O
goovie is married! Back · 17 years ago
~~~
ChrisChin is Getting Old Back · 17 years ago
^^^
Bender Back · 17 years ago
---
goovie is married! Back · 17 years ago
:::
nate... Back · 17 years ago
˘˘˘
Brian Dinsky · 17 years ago

I'm at work.  We gots us some bags.  Maybe I'll print out this thread, bag it, and throw it out?

Why, oh WHY do I make unnecessary comments?

I've made a wonderfully entertaining habit out of only offering to bag merchandise that either doesn't need it in any way whatsoever, or already comes in it's own entirely sufficient bag.  If it is relatively obvious that your purchase could benefit from the functionality of a bag to carry it all, I probably won't ask you if you would like one. 

What the hell am I talking about, anyways?

Is my thread reply nothing more than a feeble attempt to appear constructive at work?  Damn right, it is.

Kris 'engaged' Bedient Back · 17 years ago
Did you suceed in appearing constructive at work? And if you didn't, did you get paid for it anyway? And if you did, do you feel better now, or do you just feel like you've cheated the system? But have you cheated the system, or did you just take a paid break to make up for all of the other paid breaks you've worked through? o.O
sheryls Back · 17 years ago
and if you did, are you some kind of robot? if you are, what powers do you have?
nate... Back · 17 years ago
Do you use them for good? or for awesome?
emilie is CRANKY Back · 17 years ago
HAH HAH HAH HAAAAH omg sorry. that made me laugh. :D
stealthlori · 17 years ago
Whenever possible, and if I'm not completely wiped out and feeling like I need a little pampering, I bag my own stuff. It expedites checkout at the supermarket, and I know things get bagged the way I like, without excess ... um ... baggage. :D

Whenever not possible, I find the clerks around here usually ask if you need a bag for just one or two items. Especially at Wawa. :) *hearts Wawa* And especially for items that it's pretty obvious you're going to consume promptly.

Likewise, supermarkets always ask about paper and/or plastic, and I've never found clerks who aren't willing to mix them to suit particular items (meats and frozen in plastic, boxes and non-wet things in paper, for example) if both paper and plastic are available.

In general I like Ikea's bag-your-own policy, although when you've got a lot of fragile stuff that can be a pain.

Andrew is anti-bag, and occasionally gets a surprised reaction if he's in a non-food store and asks them not to put just one item in a bag, but it's not as if the clerk/store won't cooperate at all with his wishes. It's just a bit of an odd request -- most people do want their package of socks in a bag, both for ease of carrying and so the world doesn't know what they bought.

La la la.
Bruce Rose Back · 17 years ago
Thank <chosen diety> for self-scan checkouts. 
stealthlori Back · 17 years ago
eh. i like them when they're working properly. when they're not, it takes twice as long because you're waiting on an attendant to fix the glitches. i'm also not fond of using them when i'm buying a lot of produce. the clerks can find the codes a lot faster than i can.
Bruce Rose Back · 17 years ago

When they were first introduced in Indiana, they were just express lanes (15 items or less).  When Kroger found out that their customers were generally honest, they added the carousel for larger orders.  The day I saw that, I quit using other grocery stores and became a dedicated Kroger shopper.

I don't buy enough produce, but I try my hardest to grab the ones with the SKU sticker.  I've had clerks ask me what my produce was (apparently, they don't see arugula very often).

The self-scan at K-mart is the exception.  The machine accused me of stealing.

When I started working at Target, we had a utopian ideal called the "Pure Shopping Experience."  Ideally, the customer would find parking close to the door, find their items, quickly find able assistance, have no line at the checkout, and have no carts blocking their car when they left.  I tried to deliver that from every angle (I started as cart attendant and worked up to department supervisor).  It taught me that customers are idiots with enititlement issues. 

My "pure shopping experience" (since 1999 anyway) has been to go into the store, find what I need, and get out of the store with as little interaction as possible with the employees.  I think they appreciate it if they notice it.

A.J. Back · 17 years ago
You know, maybe this is an example where I am a clod (see other thread). ;) In grocery stores I generally do not bag anything. I've always felt that bagging the groceries is the job of the supermarket. It is part of what I'm paying them for. In a full service store (with attendant full service prices) I expect full service. Just like if I go to a full service carwash I am not going to vacuum my own carpets. If the cashier is really busy with a big line and I have a lot of stuff, I'll sometimes help out with bagging, but I view this as being nice, not as a responsibility.

Stores with a bag-your-own policy, where they are supposedly passing on the savings of not having to bag to you in the form of lower prices are a different story. In that case it IS clearly your job to bag, so you do.

As for paper or plastic, that may be regional. I'm NEVER asked my choice, and if they even HAVE paper I need to be very very fast indeed to tell them to use it, otherwise everything goes in plastic. I've always hated plastic bags (except if I have to carry a lot of stuff on foot) but it has become too much trouble to ask these days. Instead what I do is smile with a little extra joy when I shop at Trader Joes and everything gets packed in paper automatically. :)
Bruce Rose Back · 17 years ago

Personal experience with bad baggers makes me want to push them aside, even in full-service stores.  It helps that no store in the US is truly full-service (although several restaurants are).  Bad bagging falls into several categories, from produce-under-cans to simple preferance issues.  The worst part is waiting for the baggers to finish.  In a lane with a dedicated cahier, I'll have all of the bagging finished before they're finished processing the payment.  I'll admit that I plan that in advance by loading the belt so that the scanning proceeds in my preferred bagging order, but that's just common sense.  I also prefer to bag in paper, unless I'm on foot.  Self-bagging keeps the cashier/baggers from glaring or otherwise expressing their displeasure.

caroline: tired. Back · 17 years ago
dedicated cahier...like the french word for notebook? just kidding....:)
nate... · 17 years ago
..that we've missed the most obvious question here... what the heck is a Clif bar?
stealthlori Back · 17 years ago
an energy bar. www.clifbar.com/eat/eat.cfm?location=bar

i don't like 'em much myself, but their sister brand, Luna, is damned good.
ChrisChin is Getting Old Back · 17 years ago
out of various energy bars that I have tried, I really like Clif the best. It's like a mix between a granola bar and a muffin. I prefer the Black Cherry Almond, Peanut Toffee Buzz, and Chocolate Almond Fudge flavors. Luna bars are yummy too. They taste like a rice krispy treat but sometimes are a bit too sweet for me.

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