Poll: What's your gender and sexual orientation

wow. i have never been able to do that -ever-!!! and my post will even be a stoopid one.

but yay boys! rrrrooowwwwrrrrrrrrrrrrr

{that sound effect was just for the jaci, who is a-feared of hearing it in person} :P

yay boys! and yay girls! whee!
hee, and shelly thought *her* post was stupid. :)

I keep having flashes of Vicar of Dibley: "I don't care what the bible says about girls kissing girls- I'd snog her any day!"

Ironic, really, since I listed myself as a heterosexual female

Was that referring to Kylie Minogue?

my god I know exactly what you're talking about.

"it's got to be kylie! the question is, which one?"
no, wait, wrong episode.

Why Shelly, no offense intended, but how masculine you look! ;)

"Why Shelly, no offense intended, but how masculine you look!"



P.S. whose the guy in your avatar?

Mike Clem, the bassist of Eddie From Ohio :)

Thanks Honey! You always seem to be there to bail me out!

:)

How about girl on girl on girl on girl on guy on sheep?

Girl on girl on girl... Mmmmmmmmmm! :)

Guy on sheep??? EEEPPPP! ...Who brought Elton John into this... Oops, that was a goat, my mistake! ;P

NNW

Non-Nude Women?

north-northwest :)

.oO The cheese stands alone, the cheese stands alone, heigh-ho the dairy-o, the cheese stands alone Oo.

C'mon. I KNOW The Gays love Moxy Fruvous. I can't be the only one on FHDC.

Michael, I'm sure you are not the only one, but I've always found it and interesting demographic that fruvous doesn't *seem* to pull in a lot of gay guys. MY sense of the general fruhead population is more female than male, Heavily female-bisexual (maybe 50 %?) Very heavily male-heterosexual.

I think you may well be the only openly gay male fruhead I've ever met. I can think of one or two others who I suspect may be gay, but they haven't said so, and indeed may not know themselves.

Really? That's weird, because Fruvous *seems* like such a natural match for gay men. I mean, four gorgeous men (all attractive in very different ways), screaming liberal lyrics, catchy tunes... ::shrug::

Maybe we're all too busy dropping E and listening to techno to pay any attention. :-)

And don't forget all the gay inuendo from Jian and Dave.

But Michael...what about our child?!

;D

Nope. you're not the only one. at least, that I've met. well, at least that I've met the boyfriend of. anyways... :)

I thought they just loved Jian... just like all the straight and bi-sexual women!

bisexual women like Jian cause he's a girl.

"bisexual women like Jian cause he's a girl."

I am gald that *you* said that, and not me...

:)

Speaking as a gay man, just let me say...

::shudder::

:)

Is it possible that Jian's not gay and you are jealous because he's got better hair than you? :^P

Which hair?

1993 tour hair?

1997 tour hair?

present hair that looks like hat head?

:)

lol, I like his hair! I wish I had hair like his, I haven't noticed the hat hair look however, on his show it doesn't look like hat hair.

what's wrong with your own hair?

Nothing, I like my hair, I have really nice hair. I just wish I had hair like Jian's, because I've always had my hair.

great. now i have an image of bro michael singing 'the wonderful thing about tiggers' in my head.

aaaaaaccccccccckkkkkkk!!!

I was torn between bisexual female and the insensitive clod option... i ended up going with bisexual female but now I'm regretting it. I think of sexuality and attraction as entirely fluid and don't like to use clearly defined labels, and I don't think that attraction necessarily has to be about sex... so... yeah. *sigh*

Yup. You sound bisexual to me. ;-)

LOL! :)
*hugs michael the dyke*

*hugs michael the dyke*

I'm jealous Michael, I want to be a dyke too! please tell me how!

:)

Heh. I wish I knew. It just kind of worked out that way. :-)

it's a talent.
He doesn't talk about it much.
..but if you would like to buy his book...
:D
~J~

damn straight. where was the trans and couldn't care less option?

Really Gella? I thought the clod option was written with you in mind! I totally expected that the one person so far that picked that was you. In my head, I've kind of made up a new category for you: Gender-indifferent. I don't know if that sounds right to you or not, but to me that kind of describes what I've heard you espouse.

As for me, I thought about checking the clod box myself, because while I'm straight, I'm not narrow. :) But really, while I'm open minded, I have to admit that I'm basically straight, so I went with that option.

Gender-indifferent! I love it!

This made me think of Roy Cohn. For you younguns not up on your ancient history Roy was a creature of pure evil. He was the prosecutor in the Rosenberg atomic spy trial and a big player in the McCarthy era witch hunts. He was also a virulent homophobe. What makes that somewhat amusing is that he was gay. In his own mind he wasn't; a fag was someone effeminent not someone macho like him. He just liked having sex with men. He died of AIDS. That part of the story is chronicled in the classic play Angels in America

As a footnote, I ran into him once, I was entering the building that he was leaving. I never saw anyone who looked as evil as he did. He would have made the perfect Wormtongue in Lord of the Rings.

Angels in America... damn, that's the play that I've been trying to remember for some time now. I remember reading the first one for one of my theatre classes. Damn bastard prof wouldn't let me borrow his copy of the second play in the series (Called Perestroika.)

Must remember to do that when finances allow.

I just find it funny that bi girls at least currently number more than the straight girls. :) Is that something odd about fruheads or are women really just that much more open?

I think in general that women are more open to possibility, or to ambiguity.

I would argue that it has more to do with the society in which we live than the women themselves. It is a big, hairy deal for a male to seem effeminate in any way. Such is not the case with women seeming masculine.

But I don't really don't see where bisexual or lesbian females are typically "masculine". There's that old stereotype of the butch lesbian, but I suspect that's a big minority. Thoughts?

Not where *I* live. :)

Actually, it's about 50/50 here. But try going to Cheryl Wheeler concert at the Iron Horse!

Oh, I totally agree. I'm just saying that the rules aren't consistent. I mean, it's kind of expected that women will, at some point, explore their sexuality, perhaps with another woman...

Now, if you ever suggested that a "dyed in the wool straight man" ever did anything of the sort, you're liable to get punched.

But most bi-female fruheads are not particularly masculine.

I would agree with that statement, although I live with one of the bisexual female fruheads, and while she is decidedly femine, I have no doubt that she could *KICK MY ASS* at any given moment!

:P

Oh their ability to kick ass is definitely one of the attrations of fruhead women! :)

Well, I have to admit that I am a long-standing, dyed-in-the-wool (tho' I'm not exactly sure what that means!) straight male, all I can really say in my defense at this point is, "WOO-Freakin'-HOO for Bisexual Females!!! And I don't mean that simply because I live with one! ...Just love the concept all-together!!!!

I should append this by stating that, addressing the way this thread is developing, as a straight male, my leanings are more toward the "Lip-stick" lesbian/bi-girl end of the spectrum... had I been given a choice of sexual preference when God (or whomever) handed them out, I would have eagerly begged to be a lesbian!!! (though I hate makeup, so the "lip-stick" part of the equation would simply be figurative for "damn-girly-and-proud-of-it"... (Go Willow, Go Willow, It's Your Birthday...!!!!!)

See, I just don't get the male fascination with women doing...well...you know, it. I mean, even if one of the participants is drop-dead gorgeous, I don't find straigh porn particularly erotic.

Of course, perhaps I'm comparing apples and oranges.

Well, perhaps I'm the wrong person to ask, since I'm not a fan of porn in general.... but I agree.

Like, as a straight man, I don't find women doing it to be all that erotic either....

I mean, why watch? I'd much rather DO...
*shrugs*

Maybe it's something about attraction. You, personally, would not be attracted to both members of a hetero couple, nor those in a girl-girl scene. A straight guy might identify with the hetero guy and be attracted to the girl...and in the girl-girl case be attracted to both participants.

I think I've confused myself. :)

But me, I'm attracted to all...so guy-girl, girl-girl, and guy-guy are all actually interesting to me. *shrug* Maybe I'm weird.

No, you're not. You're just open to more possibilities than most people (or than most people are consiously anyway). I find male-male sex erotic, but not AS erotic as male-female or female-female. That fits with my being straight though, so that is not really much of a puzzle.

Hmmm... "open to more possibilities" makes it sound like a choice. Was that your intent?

Well, sort of.

What one finds erotic is somewhat of a choice, on some level. Or at least you could say that certain things have erotic potential, but whether or not they reach that potential depends on how open to them one is.

For example I could easily put up a block to the eroticality of boy-boy sex. I actually have to work to NOT do that. That doesn't mean that boy-boy sex is not erotic, and I can experience that eroticism if I'm open to it.

Make sense? No? Damn! :\

Well, it makes sense, but doesn't ring true in my experience. I mean, I don't *choose* to be attracted to who and what I'm attracted to... And, yeah, I can fight that attraction once it starts crackling in my brain, but that's apt to be a losing battle.

<shrug> But people are different, and YMMV.

I tend to think sort of the same way as AJ in the sense of attraction being a choice *to some extent.* That is a very dangerous thought, I know, and one that is met with a great deal of hostility in the gay community because in many places and cases the belief that *we can't help it* is the only thing keeping certain people from killing us... them... I never know who I am allowed to identify with seeing as how I so vehemently resist labels...
but I was saying... I tend to think along lines that almost fall in with the "spectrum" camp, the idea that everyone is bisexual to some degree, and that to what degree you are or acknowledge that bisexuality is dependent on any number of factors. The only problem with calling it a spectrum is that spectrum suggests only two ends, and I don't believe in gender duality either. I just tend to think that in general things aren't nearly as clean cut as most people would love to believe.
The really important thing here is that once someone has opened themselves up and found that what they have found makes them comfortable and happy, it is positively barbaric to ask them to close up again, to try to forget what they have discovered in themselves... that is what I believe should replace the "we can't help it" defense. It shouldn't be defense, it should be offense.
That was not clear at all and someday I will write something much better developed on the subject.

No, I get and understand the "spectrum" models of sexuality and gender. It's just that my sexuality is so totally black-and-white; I am gay, and have never been attracted to a woman whom I knew was a woman; that it's hard for me to form a concrete mind-picture of what that looks like.

Of course, maybe my dearth of female-attractedness is societal and not inherent. Maybe there's psychological damage blocking me from being attracted to women. Maybe the moon is made of green cheese.

Michael, it is hard to say what puts you so far off to the gay corner of the spectrum. I don't know if it is your environment, your genes, your culture or what, and it sounds like neither do you, but just seeing that there IS a continum and that there are perhaps a variety of reasons for where one finds one's self on it that really is the important thing. Some of it may well be inheirent but probably not all. And that is ok.

Yes it was.

Gella I love you! :)

I don't remember who it was that modified the Kinsey scale (originally a continuum from 0--exclusively het-- to 6--exclusively gay) to include several different factors.
If, for instance, it's _having_ sex with someone of the same gender identification as you that makes you gay/lesbian, does celibacy render you straight by default? (I don't think so.)
There's a whole lot of stuff that determines what someone "is": fantasy, practice, politics, and self-description, among other things.
So I could be involved with lesbian politics, have wicked crushes on one woman, two men, and a self-described "other," date and/or sleep with absolutely none of them (out of lack of opportunity or decision or whatnot), and identify myself as bisexual because it seems simplest to do so. And who's going to tell me I'm wrong? :)

yeh, like when i would tell people as a young teen that i was very attracted to girls, but hadn't ever been sexually intimate with one, & people'd go, "aah, you're bi-curious." & i'd go, "noooo...." cause acourse it was quite awhile before i did something with a boy, & yet nobody'd say i was "asexual but straight-curious"........

Yeah, that's a VERY good point.
*nodsnods*

I agree with you completely...
I mean... I know gay men who have slept with women.... (when they were younger and still in the closet). Does that make them Bi? No... I would say not.
(at least, in the example I'm thinking of)

I wouldn't even consider myself bisexual and yet I find girl-girl to be erotic, though not any moreso than I find guy-guy or guy-girl, keeping in mind that in all cases I find inuendo or at the most soft-porn much more interesting than actual porn. I get bored with real porn very quickly. As long as it is actually erotic, however, it matters little to me the genders of the participants. I'm not sure it's about me being attracted to them as much as it is them being attracted to each other. If they've got the chemistry, they've got my attention.

I think that's actually a really good way of putting it. It's not about the people, it's about the situations. Given the right situations and setups I can find all combinations incredibly erotic. It's the passion of those involved that's exciting.

"I'm not sure it's about me being attracted to them as much as it is them being attracted to each other."

Can I hear the congregetion say "AMEN"!!!!

I think that's why the written word can often be much more powerful and erotic than something on screen, too... you don't have to worry about the chemistry of actors. It's a lot easier to write chemistry than it is to actually find it in real life. :)

Once again, can I get another "AMEN" from the congregetion??? Allelujah!

>I think that's why the written word can often be much more
>powerful and erotic than something on screen, too... you
>don't have to worry about the chemistry of actors. It's a lot
>easier to write chemistry than it is to actually find it in real
>life. :)

Well...okay. But for me, at least, arousal is a very visual thing. Imagining it in my feeble little brain just isn't the same.

My imagination is a lot stronger than my eyesight. :)

I completely agree. I'm far more turned on by poetry than I am by any sort of 'visual' porn. Actually, I surprised myself with just how aroused you can get just by thinking. Like, that you can reach the, er, 'full point of arousal' using *nothing* but your mind. I don't know if that's normal...prolly not. :)

I think it IS normal... especially for women. It's a big generalization, and those are always flawed, but I think men are more visually stimulated than women.

Yeah, a lot of women can do that. Men, generally are more visual, yes, but more importantly most men need some kind of physical stimulation somewhere along the line. With the exception of "wet dreams" (which I've never experienced) I think you'd be hard pressed to find a guy who could do it all with is imagination alone.

Gee, didn't someone write a song about that? ;)

Yes. It was Antje Duvekot. She also has that...er...talent. We actually had a very interesting conversation about it at FRFF. :)

Gorgeous isn't really the point though. Someone doesn't necessarily have to be gorgeous to be really really hot. I think in your case, that you just aren't wired that way, and so it makes sense for you not to be so turned on by that stuff.

On the other hand I know of plenty of lesbians who find male-male erotica exciting. That I don't get at all, but whatever!

Where does Hobbit Death Porn figure in here?

that's what she's talking about.
she's a sicko.

I thought it was a fine point.

I'm with you.

I'm a fan of that trio myself. :)

word.

heh. just don't even get me started on harry/draco slash ;)

*dances the frustrated spinster dance* :D

ergh, someone sucked me into some of that and i felt SO dirty. there's just something about people i view as children in such situations. the one line of "in their last year of school, harry and draco are 17..." just doesnt make it better to me at all.

i read one story and i couldnt pick up a potter book for *months*.

yick.

it's like, what's next? pokemon slash? clifford slash?

*dear god please no one link it*

ew. ew. no, i didn't mean, like, harry and draco as 13 year-olds or whatever, because that would be just TOTALLY gross. no, i do mean the 17 year-old stuff, and being only 19, i don't have much of a problem with that ;)

I used to get very turned on by queerscribe. Never really got why. I tend to be a lot more interested in guy/guy girl/girl written stuff, like slash, than in actual visual porn. Sometimes soft porn with actual emotion and character development is interesting, regardless of the gender matching involved... but people just going at it does nothing for me. This is a big part of why I get annoyed when people insist that attraction is all about sex. For me its completely the other way around... sex is about attraction and attraction is about anything and/or everything.

Well, for some people.... (primarily male... but I've known some women too) sex is JUST sex.
There's not a whole lot more to it....

Then there are others who have seen it both ways.
Like, I know people who can have sex for the sake of just having sex.... but when they care about and love the person, it's completely different.

But, I mean.... sex is about attraction.... and attraction is also about sex appeal... so in a way, they're very much linked.

Oh Jaci, you and Lisa have SO much to talk about!

It came from this:

Then there's slash, which is a different story. supposedly written mainly by straight women. but still, that whole scene has a lot do do with subversion of media and textual poaching, but it's also an area where young girls work out sexual issues. which is why there's so much bad slash :)

Lisa is all into sleash and fanfic--even to the academic level. She loves to quote that Textual Poachers book and stuff. I find slash to be a complete mystery. It makes NO sense to me. Actually I think she'd argue that it is more than YOUNG girls working out their sexual issues. :)

Of course, perhaps I'm comparing apples and oranges.

Actually, it's more like comparing penises and vaginas.

"See, I just don't get the male fascination with women doing...well...you know, it. I mean, even if one of the participants is drop-dead gorgeous, I don't find straigh porn particularly erotic."

Okay, is it just me (it probably is, I'm very, very tired) or ar you contradicting yourself in saying you don't get girl-on-girl porn, even if one of the girls is gorgeous, you don't get "straight" porn (which I am thinking means girl-on-GUY porn)

Regardless, I have to insert a caveat here, seeing how this thread is developing... I am not some typical guy whose history is straight-forwardly typical guy. My father, who left when I was 5, sexually abused my mother and two older sisters (7 and 9 years older than I) (outright raping my eldest sister one afternoon when picking her up from gradeschool) and I grew up in his absence hearing how sex was simply a means of men subjegating (sp?) women and asserting their only means of direct power over them. Porn has long been described as objectification of women, and I believe that "lesbian" porn is no different... but it is much easier to believe that women who are having sex with other women are doing so because they actually care about the other woman or are truly seeking pleasure, rather then being compelled by men or exploiting their own exploitation.

I just want to believe sex is about love first and mutual pleasure second, and if there is no selfish, objectifying male involved, it makes it that much easier to believe that it is so.

...And I have said way to much now, so I am going to go to bed and I hope I did not piss anyone off too much... Sorry.

>Okay, is it just me (it probably is, I'm very, very tired) or ar
>you contradicting yourself in saying you don't get girl-on-girl
>porn, even if one of the girls is gorgeous, you don't
>get "straight" porn (which I am thinking means girl-on-GUY
>porn)

Maybe, but I don't see the contradiction. What I meant was that I even if I find the guy in straight porn attractive, I don't find straight porn...arousing. I was just trying to find an equal in my experience to a straight guy being into girl-girl porn. Maybe one doesn't exist. <shrug>

Nothing to be pissed off about, BTW... Just a friendly discussion.

> I don't find straight porn...

Then you're just not looking in the right place! ;-)

"See, I just don't get the male fascination with women doing...well...you know, it. I mean, even if one of the participants is drop-dead gorgeous, I don't find straight porn particularly erotic."

My Mistake, I am sorry. When you referred to women "doing it" and then said "participants" I thought you were still referring to women. thank you for your clairification, and you're right, there is no contradiction.

Hope you can forgive me!

We'll see what we can do. :-)

Welcome to FHDC, by the by.

"Welcome to FHDC, by the by."

Well, thank you kindly, I am honored to make you aquaitance!

:)

And I did not realize until Ani got home that you are *HER* Michael... her twin! Count me doubly honored to make your acquaintance!

I prefer to think of us as being in a mutually-beneficial symbiotic relationship... But po-tay-to, po-tah-to... :-)

Boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew...

First off... that's awful... :( I hope your sisters (and you!) are doing okay after that ordeal.
*hugs*

secondly... perhaps that IS a good reason to not be into straight male/female porn... much of it is very much male-dominant.... which you have a very good reason to a bit put off by.

Thank you. You are very kind.

I think all the straight FruHead girls just abandoned Camp Fruvous for Camp Jian.

Fishgirls!

;-D

*ducks* :D

*quacks*

*performs unneccesary surgery*

*stops quacking*

*hmph* there happen to be three other camps for us straight fruhead girls to go to *besides* Camp Jian - not everyone goes for drummers you know :P

Jian is the most accessible. And everyone knows that straight girls always go for the path of least resistence. :)

"And your drummer... is he uh... is uh... is he a goer? wink wink, nudge nudge, know what I mean? know what I mean?"

Say no more!
Please, say no more.
I can say no more.

Do I get points for a Monty Python Beatles combination reference?

You do from me!! :)

from me too!

since when? besides, i'd rather have everything sewn together than have sex with Jian. :)
"that's guy's probably more crudded up than the monkey in Outbreak." - very loosely quoted from Chasing Amy

Oh really? Then I guess I'm not really a straight girl, considering I haven't taken "the path of least resistance" in the Frulad department *snicker* (Actually, as a virgin by choice, I haven't really taken the path of least resistance sexually either *g*) Anyway Gella, that's not exactly a good generalization to be making.. even in jest ;)

Hrm. I wonder if Josh should put some sort of content warning on this poll at this point. :)

Well, I don't think there's anything, like, BAD in it....

Is that an invitation? *gets out the Twister mat*

Rowr!
:D

It seems like any bad to be found here - aside from J.C. The One True Solomon's invitation to play twister! :) - would have been introduced by me... I am sorry if I might have offended.

:\

I doubt it. After all, Michael brought up the Hobbit Death Porn.

*HEH*

HOBBIT DEATH PORN!

Sure...blame the fag... ;-D

A guilty cigarette?!?!?! Where!?!?!?!?!?

:)

So....is that, like, a date?

Heh.
naked twister date?
:D

i don't date. only casual naked twister. :D

Well, then I guess that answers becca's question.

No, it was not, like, a date.
:D

What if we made it a frucon event? Think of the possibilities!

Didn't I already suggest that?

....but i don't like dating because it's too casual.

howabout serious overwrought naked twister? :)

I like the way you think, woman!

Anyone old enough to have the attention span to read this thread is mature enough to handle what it contains. *grins*

*in ralph voice* reading makes my brain hurt! :(

Double *grin*!

Also grinning - ear-to-ear!

Ya know, kids these days just don't have the concentration it takes to ... look! A bunny!

The mice have become brazen. Send more cheese.

Warning? Why? Is there something BAD about sex? Sex shouldn't need warnings. VIOLENCE is what needs warnings.

But Sex and Violence (aside from being a great band) are linked together, so warnings for one should mean warnings for others.

Sex and violence are linked together? Wha?!

Yes, there are some studies that suggest violence can cause sexual arousal. Not like murder-death-kill violence, but your wartime-blow-em-up type violence. Heck, there's a whole subculture or subset of sexual activity that's devoted to sex and violence.

Cite, please?

Go look it up on google.com. I don't have a cite handy; I don't keep a rolladex of cites on various stuff (except for political and law stuff). The place I saw it was on a Discovery channel special on sex and sexual lifestyles like two years ago.

If you don't think violence and sex are linked for some people, how do you explain sadomasochism and bondage lifestyles?

Bullshit. You made the assertion, you prove it.

I don't deny that violence and sex are connected for some people. You stated it as though it was an accepted fact for all humans.

Then you conceed my point. Thank you very much.

What colour is the sky in your world?

Is it pretty there?

The point that he just conceeded to (sex and violence being related for some people) was not the point you seemed to be making. You were describing a universal connection between sex and violence (and using nothing to back it up)...he was saying that some people combine the two.

I agree that the initial assertion appeared to be universal in nature. I also think that the examples sadomasochism and bondage lifestyles are less than adequate examples for the connection between sex and violence in some people (It could be argued that, as long as they are consentual and don't involve minors, bondage is not about violence, but rather about contol and vulnerability, and that S&M is more about pain and arousal)

Rape, on the other hand, is a very solid example.

Because sex is dirty and wrong. Oh, and the president says violence is good. :-)

Was that the president with the cigar?!?!?

Bah, who cares? They are both a couple of rejects.

heh!
I was looking for the "I wish I was Tim Curry" option!
LOL
~J~

i like the ladies. the nice ladies, with their pretty painted faces, and supple bodies. oh yeah...and men.....

I believe it was missy elliot who said "Boys Boys all kinds of boys!"

how can you not like the boys...sorry girls.

Looks like the straight women come out at night.

Well, if anyone is still reading :)

i'm straight, i did however dabble in the female world - early in college and a bit before. i've been with eric for 4 years now and havent touched a girl since.

i have this to say about girls.

i think what i like about guys is that they're slightly rough yet soft. i like the coarsness of their hair, and the smoothness of the skin, yet, the toughness of it. it's thick skin.

girls are........soft. just too soft. i feel like i'm gonna break them. it was just a very uncomfortable situation. i'm very akward around girls, since i am somewhat attracted to them, yet, i have no idea what to DO with them, and i really have no interest in doing anything with them, really. i'm just too rough for them.

so, that's my story. liked girls. tried them. didnt like them. still think they're cute, but that's about it.

*bow*

I want the stats Josh

Just like your tour stats. ;)

*looking at Other Polls* Looks like this is definitely the most posts... second place going to the What Are Your Religious Beliefs poll with 113 posts

I believe that this is only the third topic (including both forum topics and poll topics) to ever break 100 posts -- and this one's nearing 200.

-- Pauley

I'm surprised noone has brought up the whole factor of "bi" being really "trendy"... especially amongst college age females.

It's very interesting... around smith, it's called "bi for college".
heh.

ahhh... something else to get defensive about. :)

I dunno. I used to really resent bisexuals. It seemed to me that it was no fair that they got all the benefits of being gay, but they could pass for straight whenever the situation called for it.

Yeah, I think it is really trendy to label yourself bi these days. And yeah, I think an awful lot of people who consider themselves bi at age 18 will eventually end up on one side of the fence or the other by age 30. But what I don't understand is whether that's because they always were straight/gay/whatever, or if societal pressures just made that the path of least resistance.

And at this point, I'd like to slaughter a quote from Torch Song Trilogy: No man sneaks out on his boyfriend to have sex with women. Shouldn't you hear about that happening once in awhile?

"Yeah, I think it is really trendy to label yourself bi these days. And yeah, I think an awful lot of people who consider themselves bi at age 18 will eventually end up on one side of the fence or the other by age 30."

Yeah, I agree...I don't mean to offend anyone, I just haven't personally known anyone who said they were bi and acted bi. All the "bi" friends/acquaintances I've had have pretty much exclusively dated either males or females, though they'd occasionally talk about having crushes on or attractions to both sexes. I'm sure some people really are bisexual, I just don't think they're as numerous as the people who claim to be.

well, i dunno... there really is a lot of resentment toward bisexuals from both/all sides and a lot of pressure to "coose one or the other." One might theorize that a good portion of those people who go from bi to one-or-the-other are indeed caving under external pressure... another portion may find themselves in steady excliusive relationships which make them appear to have "chosen a side" and they decide to go with that image/lifestyle/mentality, some may find a niche with men or women that they just click more easily with at that given point in their life which doesn't necessarily mean that there is a complete lack of attraction for the other gender (afterall, how much does there have to be for one to be considered bi?) but just that they've... fallen into the habit, for lack of better words, of being romantically involved exclusively with one gender or another.
While I have no doubt that for many people a "bisexual phase" is part of the exploration process which leads to the discovery of their more homo- or heterosexual leanings, just as there are many who call themselves bi and then decide otherwise, I would guess that the same is true in the other direction.

Really? You think that people decide, on a regular basis, to change their identification from straight (or gay) to bi?

Hmmm... That has not been my observation

Well, not as simplistically as that, not by any means. I'm not saying that people just up and decide "hey, I'm gonna be gay/bi/straight from now on!"

By that same token, this whole "trendy to be bi" idea suggests that that is precisely what a lot of college girls are doing. After all, following trends is a choice, isn't it?

Identifications do change, however. Perhaps it is because I am relatively young, perhaps it is because I grew up in New York City, perhaps it is the sorts of people I find myself surrounded by, but I have seen a lot of identification changes in my time... some very sudden, some excruciatingly slow and painful, some really really drastic (from raging homophobe to- "hey, guess what I discovered!") some which seemed like falling over a log.

You never know exactly what has occurred in someone else's life, world or mind that sparks the transition, but whatever the motivation, conscious or unconscious, I've seen enough to have a feeling that it can drastically different from one person to the next, and that in some cases, just in terms of *self identification,* whether healthily or not, it is a matter of will and/or pressure.

All of that is very true, Gella, which is why I'm working so hard to get over my resentment. I like to assume that what I think is true is the gospel truth, and it's uncomfortable in the extreme for me to realize that's not the truth. So... I get an "f" for effort, I guess.

Now, one of the reasons it's so easy for me to sit in judgement is because it has always been totally cut-and-dried for me. I've known for as long as I can remember, I've known that I was aroused by boys, and not aroused by girls. And I'm always suprised when I find this is not the case for others.

Shall I tell my story then?

I was never sexually attracted to or aroused by *anyone* until I was 17. When it finally happened it was a guy... and this guy was bi, and in many ways rather effeminate. And he was the only person I found myself attracted to at all. Before I met him I often wondered what was wrong with me... was I asexual? I'd often been accused of being a lesbian because I wasn't interested in boys... I had often wished that this were the case... at least then there would be something.

After meeting this guy I sort of assumed that I was straight, but was still troubled by my lack of attraction toward anyone else. I found certain people pretty to look at, but I had always thought of girls as being generally more pleasant to look at... on the other hand, I just wasn't finding anyone else I could really *relate* to on a deeper level, and that was really always the important thing.

Then things just sort of evolved in a certain direction and i started finding myself relating to more people and looking at more people and figuring out what I found attractive in people... and it just didn't seem to be based on gender... though I'm finding these days (and for a while) that I tend to find more girls that I am interested in than guys. Meanwhile, that first guy is still around and I am still very very much attracted to him.

So, I guess that's me in progress. Not sure if you really wanted to know all that, but I thought I'd give you a window into my world.

See, that's actually very interesting...
(not sure that you wanted a response.. but here I am giving it anyway. heh)

I've been attracted sexually to people since.. like.. I was a little kid.
There was this woman who my uncle was dating, who was like, 26 or so.. and I was... about 6... and I had a HUGE crush on her.
I used to draw pictures of me kissing her.
:D
But yeah... like michael, I've always known about my sexual attraction.. and never doubted it. There have been men I've been very attracted to... but... only as a crush sort of thing. I've never really had a sexual interest in a man.

So in a way, I suppose I just find it really fascinating to think that there are people who haven't had that level of certainty.

I have friends who are DEFINITELY bi... DEFINITELY straight, and DEFINITELY gay... but very few who don't really know..... at least, out of those I"ve been very close to.
I've known many of those LUG's (to use the term jaci brought up) in my day, however... but I guess I kinda assumed it was just a trend-based thing ONLY....
The more I think about it though... I suppose there might be a level of uncertainty attached.
However, I still tend to think the genuine ones are probably the minority.

I started young too... had a scary scary crush on a boy in my kindergarten class... a really intense crush that I had no clue what to do with at that age. That was the beginning of a loooong childhood full of unrequited love. Heh.

Heheh yeah me too. Was "in love" with a guy in daycare when I was 6. Graham Williams, his name was. :) (He was a total geek, too...my preferences definitely erupted early. :) )

I was very sexual (not in the *act* sense) very early. I totally didn't know what it was about at the time. I thought I was SO weird though.

Hrm. I'm still weird. :)

Well, yeah, not in the act sense... but I too was very sexual very young.
hehe

Ditto.

Is that like being a four year activist? Four year lesbian?

Yeah, I've heard that one too.
hehehe
it's the "in thing".

All the cool girls are doing it! (with each other).
:)

Wow, with all these girl Fr�vous fans, it makes me realize... I should get out more.

Heh. I joined the Fruheads for the chicks!

I believe it's also been referred to as LUG: "Lesbian until graduation"

It came up on Plastic, I think, where the technically inclined community has another meaning for LUG: "Linux User Group"

Hilarity ensued.

Well, that'll teach me to not read a thread fully before posting. Oh well. At least the second part is still pertinent/funny.