Iraqi Body Count

ARe you going to include civilians the that the Iraqi government kills? I mean you want to keep it real.

Don't pretend that this has nothing to do with your opinion on the war.

wow... I'm amazed that the civilian death rate is so low, considering how the Iraqi gov't throws civilians in front of them to save their own asses.

A Palestinian official once not too long ago smugly told the press that Israel's great weakness was that they valued human life so much.

Look at the big picture. It's *all* real. Why would death by American bombs or bullets be more real or more tragic than death by torture or acid bath or plastic shredder? (feet first. they put people in the shredders feet first.)

Valuing human life is *not* a weakness. It is a strength. It will win out in the end. But we also have to realize when we are being manipulated, when it is being used against us. We must value *all* the lives, not just the ones lost in war. The ones that *we kill* are not insignificant... their loss must weigh on us... but so must the ones that we *didn't help to save* in the whole time that we left this regime in power.

my 2 cents.

As much as civilian casualities are unfortunate, civilians do die as a result of war. I'm not using that to grant validity to the war, just stating the simple fact that civilians do die in war, it's inevitable.

That being said, I do believe this country goes out of it's way to avoid such casualities. We fly precision bombing missions, spend months mapping out precise targets, and even avoid fully engaging the enemy when they are in population centers.

Keep in mind the Iraqis are fighting inside civilian population centers, placing valid military targets next to hospitals, schools, and residential areas. We are not to blame for every civilian death.

Tell that to Nelson Mandela who has said that Americans and Bush do not value human lives. What a jerk. Americans are some of the most charitable people in the world. He should learn to separate what our government does versus what our population does.

There was even a story at worldnetdaily that Iraqi soldiers were firing on our troops from inside a hospital. The marines took several wounded and a couple killed in the engagement because they evacuated the hospital first and got the non-combatants out of there before proceeding on a room to room search for the soldiers.

A military that didn't value human lives would have just shelled the building.

Yeah. This is about where I am right now. Once it actually started, I shifted into observer mode. I've been watching the news, and reading the news, and listening to the news, and mostly just taking it in. The civilian causalities are lighter than I expected they would be at this point, which does not make them good things, but not as bad as I thought they would be.
And I don't trust the numbers as reported right now by either side (the real number is most likely in the middle), and there are cases where it's not certain which side is at fault, but neither of those matter right now, what matters is that people have died. When this is over, these things should be investigated. If for no other reason then so history knows what happened.
Regardless of where I, or anyone else, stood on this war, this is where we are. I'm not about to say that this means that people have to get behind it, I'm glad people are still protesting (I'm always glad to see [smart / non-violent] protesters, if I agree with them or not), but the US is not going to pull out at this point.
It's happening, we're committed, it's real, and hopefully, it will be over soon.

I was reading the "About Us" section on the Iraq Body Count site, and more than half of the people involved are musicians.  

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/contacts.htm 

Gordon, you have no clue what my opinion of the war is. I don't know if the people doing the count are including civilians killed by the iraqi govt. or not. I kind of doubt it, but I'm not sure that matters. The point is to keep track of the human cost of OUR actions which are supposed to be to the Iraqi's benefit. That situation requires constant monitoring. This whole thing could turn into a totally negaitve enterprise at the drop of a hat.

Sure we are. We started the war. This does not go to the issue of the rightness or wrongness of the war, but we do have to own responsibility for those we (albiet accidently) kill. We launched a war knowing civilians would die. We can't now hide from that cost.

"And I don't trust the numbers as reported right now by either side (the real number is most likely in the middle), and there are cases where it's not certain which side is at fault, but neither of those matter right now, what matters is that people have died."

Correct. That is why the counter lists low and high. I brilliant idea, I think. The numbers ARE low. It is sad that numbers that high are low, but yes they are low, thank goodness. Let's hope they stay that way and all this ends soon.

From the site's Methodology FAQ:

Why don�t you report civilian deaths "indirectly caused"?

Attribution of deaths caused by factors such as bombed water treament plants, destruction of medical facilities and supplies, toxic residues from weaponry (such as Depleted Uranium), malnourishment, or operations by internal (Iraqi) military forces is a far from clear-cut process. Each side can claim that such deaths are the "fault" of the other side or, where long-term illnesses are concerned, "due to other causes" (and often do make these claims). We prefer to stay totally and verifiably factual. The test is that the bullet (or equivalent) comes from a piece of weaponry where the trigger was pulled by a US or allied finger. We agree that deaths from any deliberate source are an equal outrage, but in this project we want to only record those deaths to which we can unambigously hold our leaders to account. In short, we record those civilians directly killed by our military actions in Iraq.

***

I'm finding their whole project quite fascinating, actually.  I'd recommend reading the entire FAQ at http://www.iraqbodycount.net/background.htm#methods

Yes, but I don't really see your point. The war was immoral from the moment the very first bomb hit. Why just limit it to civilian casualities? Everyone who dies as a result of this conflict is tragic, our military and their military included.

I guess I just have a problem with people who take a specific action such as this one, and then generalize it by saying that America is evil. Our government may be immoral and wrong, but that's a big difference from saying our whole culture and people are evil.

I'm not saying you are saying that, but alot of anti-war protesters seem to take that line.

Well right, they are, but they are either insane, or letting their anger control their words.

let it include the 1.5 million Iraqis who died due to sanctions. The deaths caused by Hussain wouldn't even reach 1% of that impressive total.

Whose sanctions were they? The US has no power to impose sanctions, they were the UN's sanctions. The US was the leader in getting them enacted, but the UN agreed and imposed them.

We all know what the sanctions were supposed to do... they were supposed to deprive Hussein of *his* resources. But Hussein diverted all of the resources meant for the people of Iraq to his own weapons and palace-building projects, living in splenor while his people starved. The US, when they realized that the sanctions weren't working, tried to change the plan... tried to get "smart sanctions" instated so that it would be harder for Saddam Hussein to steal the Iraqi people's food. But that plan was shot down. By whom, you ask?

Mainly, the French.

The deaths caused by the sanctions *were* caused by Saddam Hussein. And the US. And France. And your precious UN. Don't get all morally indignant. *NO ONE* is guiltless here.